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Neil,
Before you start saying that I am full of BS and in bed with Realtors and not working ONLY for my client, I suggest you look at my past posts. You have picked the wrong guy to make that statement.
Back to your post "Home inspectors do not look past what can be seen. They are a detailed walk through with photos and thats it. He probably sees the electrical is not junctioned correctly. If it looks bad on the outside, how bad is it behind the walls or in the sockets?
Estimates do the same thing (they are a visual look). So this is where cost comes in. Contractor inspections use a scope, open the outlets, removes the electrical panel and loooks for scorch." MY mistake I guess.
I guess it was your wording "They are a detailed walk through with photos and thats it." that made me believe you had a low opinion of inspectors and assumed we didn't take panel covers off, because you also added this "Contractor inspections use a scope, open the outlets, removes the electrical panel and loooks for scorch".
By the way, don't even get me started on the low ethics of a lot of flippers in what they try to get away with and how they try to hide known defects so they can get a quick sale.
Maybe you should. Who cares that I used an electronics term in an electrical application. But I rather prefer each one of my rooms to be on a seperate breaker. I prefer each one of my major appliances to be on a seperate breaker. I prefer that each wall in my kitchen be on a separate breaker. I think its shoddy when an outlet on my front porch blows the breaker and my living room shuts off. The OP needs to know what you as inspectors are not going to tell them. People need to know that you get alot of work from Realtors and some of you are not going to tell the customers the truth of how bad the situations may be. If you water it down, Realtors will recommend you. After all a better report leads to a sale for them and thus more work for you down the road. So please stop the the BS that you 100% represent the buyer.
NeilVA,
Thank you for qualifying your statement with "some of you". To keep this in context though we must all realize that there are good and bad in every profession. Yes there are Inspectors out there who will "Whitewash" an inspection report in an attempt to garner favor, and more referrals from, RE Agents. There are also RE Agents out there that will purposely use these Inspectors for that reason. It is unfortunate and unfortunately will not stop any time soon. But there are many good Inspectors and RE Agents out there that do not want to put their careers on the line just for a few hundred dollars, and who do represent their clients 100%.
Yes I agree I too would want to have as many separate breakers as possible from a convenience and safety standpoint. However, there is a finite amount of room in any residential grade electrical distribution panel. Any attempt to increase the amount of breakers, above accepted standards, is an additional expense to the homeowner mostly for a convenience standpoint.
I'm not really sure what you are referring to as to "what you as inspectors are not going to tell them". Could you provide more detail?
It sounds as if you have had a bad experience with Inspectors. Would you care to share the details?
some of you are not going to tell the customers the truth of how bad the situations may be.
This was a general quote and not specified towards anyone personally. But in my personal experience in doing multiple flips, I've seen numerous inspections that were severly flawed. I've looked at the knowledge/training requirements for your field and most of it is book learned and not hands on. Your being certified is more based on numbers of inspections than actually working as a tradesman in the field. You are a necessary part of the field because most people are not educated in doing an inspection themselves (and customers walk thru is akin to kicking tires on a car). And in all the contractor I've had, I've only had one that really wasn't worth what I've paid them. Thus after I or a trusted contractor goes go through a home, we will know within reason how much will be needed to repair a home. And I add a worst case dollar to it. So when I go to bid on a home I have the ammunition in my hand why my offer is what it is. My last flip was perfect eye candy when I went to inspect it on the inside of the home and it was priced based on. But once my guys checked over everything inside the home, evaluated the external items and documented the true value of the land the home was sitting on we were able to take $300,000 off the top of the asking price. For some odd reason banks value the home for what they paid for it in this economy because someone assessed that high previous to 2008. Even the county assessors are still doing high numbers in 2010. It sat on the market for over a year before I decided to look at it a few months back. But I picked it up, did what I needed to do it and had it re-sold within 10 days back on the market.
And for me, doing this is a side job (or hobby as I look at it). I grew up from a lineage of tradesman. I worked as a framer in my earlier years. But chose IT as my trade.
"what you as inspectors are not going to tell them".
You're limited on what you can say in a report. You can't say what a cost will be or even an average cost of repair. You can't say the longevity of an appliance. Your contracts have too many limitations.
Virginia Inspection Service (http://www.vainspectionservice.com/SampleContract.html - broken link)
But yet when I read a HUD home inspection report, it lists all the problems and approximate costs associated with them.
Yes I agree I too would want to have as many separate breakers as possible from a convenience and safety standpoint. However, there is a finite amount of room in any residential grade electrical distribution panel. Any attempt to increase the amount of breakers, above accepted standards, is an additional expense to the homeowner mostly for a convenience standpoint.
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But I rather prefer...........
Prefer is the key word here. You are correct, in many homes this is not feasable. But if the panel is in an an open area, I will replace it sometimes if its feasable to do so. For me if its reachable, without breaking the walls to do it, I will have certain appliances re-directed to its own breaker.
This was a general quote and not specified towards anyone personally. But in my personal experience in doing multiple flips, I've seen numerous inspections that were severly flawed. I've looked at the knowledge/training requirements for your field and most of it is book learned and not hands on. Your being certified is more based on numbers of inspections than actually working as a tradesman in the field. You are a necessary part of the field because most people are not educated in doing an inspection themselves (and customers walk thru is akin to kicking tires on a car). And in all the contractor I've had, I've only had one that really wasn't worth what I've paid them. Thus after I or a trusted contractor goes go through a home, we will know within reason how much will be needed to repair a home. And I add a worst case dollar to it. So when I go to bid on a home I have the ammunition in my hand why my offer is what it is. My last flip was perfect eye candy when I went to inspect it on the inside of the home and it was priced based on. But once my guys checked over everything inside the home, evaluated the external items and documented the true value of the land the home was sitting on we were able to take $300,000 off the top of the asking price. For some odd reason banks value the home for what they paid for it in this economy because someone assessed that high previous to 2008. Even the county assessors are still doing high numbers in 2010. It sat on the market for over a year before I decided to look at it a few months back. But I picked it up, did what I needed to do it and had it re-sold within 10 days back on the market.
And for me, doing this is a side job (or hobby as I look at it). I grew up from a lineage of tradesman. I worked as a framer in my earlier years. But chose IT as my trade.
Hello NeilVA,
I didn't take it personally, it is not worth getting upset over anything. I do like a spirited conversation though!
From what you write it appears that you are a "Professional Investor" in all meaning of the title. You find a house you like, set your price point based on what it would cost to properly rehab it and make a profit, and then you go after it. If you can't get it at that price point you move on and let the less than professional investor buy it, slap a little lipstick on it, and pass it off to an unsuspecting buyer who chooses not to have an inspection, or hires a less than competent Inspector.
I too have seen numerous seriously flawed inspections, and had clients walk on a home for what was found only to have the next buyer (not my client) buy it due to a flawed inspection. I will not claim a majority here, but a large number of those flawed inspections were performed by supposedly former builders, GC's and other tradespeople. Again, please don't anyone misinterpret this as there are good Inspectors that came from the trades. If these former bad tradespeople could not perform their trade then why can anyone expect that they could properly inspect another tradepersons' work?
Here is another good CityData thread that you should take a gander at //www.city-data.com/forum/house...nlicensed.html. The contractor that JimRom is discussing is typical of what we wind up seeing in the Inspection Profession. Once that contractor gets drummed out of business he will look towards other revenue sources. JimRom is in Florida and at this time Inspectors in Florida are not licensed. This person can easily set up shop as an Inspector and do unto consumers all that you are speaking of.
You're limited on what you can say in a report. You can't say what a cost will be or even an average cost of repair. You can't say the longevity of an appliance. Your contracts have too many limitations.
Virginia Inspection Service (http://www.vainspectionservice.com/SampleContract.html - broken link)
But yet when I read a HUD home inspection report, it lists all the problems and approximate costs associated with them.
Thank you for breaking this up so each can be handled separately.
Yes, some licensed states might, and the keyword is "Might", limit what an Inspector can or can not say by law. Many times these restrictions are also spelled out in the various laws that control other tradespeople, or professionals. For example here in Texas we can, and must, provide an opinion on the condition of a homes foundation. However, we are not allowed to BY LAW make a definitive condition statement based on scientific techniques, measurements or principles. That is actually under the guise of a licensed Professional Engineer. For example, if I take a Zip Level into a home, measure foundation levelness, and then make a definitive statement that the foundation is out of level and provided a reason why then I have violated the States Professional Engineering laws. Sadly that happens quite frequently here with Inspectors.
The state laws, and home inspection association Standards of Practice are all "Minimum Standards" for inspecting a home. Many Inspectors well exceed those minimum standards, and many barely or don't inspect to the standards.
You mentioned that we can not state the longevity of appliances. Absolutely we can, even under most state laws. Would I do that? Absolutely not!! Why not?? I'll use a very good example to explain. If a HVAC system is properly designed, operated and maintained then it can literally last A LONG TIME!! I operated and maintained by own homes unit from initial new installation for a little less than 8 years before it had to be replaced. Why? A major design flaw in the shock mounts for the exterior compressor coild caused breaks in over a half a dozen spots on the coil. How can an Inspector know that a homes components were all properly designed and religiously maintained and operated properly? How can an Inspector see inside that hot water heater's tank to see that some condition in the provided water is causing massive corrosion inside and the interior of the tank has been compromised and ready to go after only a few years in operation? For an Inspector to provide an appliances expected longevity is a serious disservice to the client! I've seen 25 year old water heaters cranking along just fine and looking like they just came out of a box. Expected life for a water heater is 10 years according to the NAHB http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_detai...ontentID=99359. Am I suppose to tell the client to replace what appears to be a water heater with no issue just because the NAHB says it should have died already? I do tell them to budget for a replacement though.
You mention that the Inspector will not provide costs, or even what an average cost would be. You are 100% correct on that!! Why don't we? Of all people you should know how material and labor costs can vary from one week to the next, one geographic area to another (even two cities next to each other). Good Inspectors spend a great deal of time just keeping up with the various areas of knowledge needed to perform that inspection. Ethical Inspectors also do not work on any home they inspect. Why would they want to get into the estimation business as well? I can bring out 5 plumbers to estimate the cost to replace a water heater and I'll get 5 different estimates. We don't carry Exactimate software, Marshall & Swift subscriptions, etc., etc. to perform estimates as these high dollar items would increase the clients costs. Instead when we find issues we recommend that the client speak with professionals to obtain estimates which will reflect good general cost estimates for the time and location of the home.
You also mention that the HUD inspections include these items from above. Yes they do, BUT the HUD inspections do not hold the HUD inspector to those cost estimates. What do you think is better for the consumer? Should an Inspector give a good faith attempt at an estimate not knowing how far off they are (2X, 3X, or more)? Or is it better for the client to leave the estimating to an honest professional who performs that specific trade day in and day out? The client (home buyer) is using that information to determine if they are getting in over their heads or not.
As I said a spirited discussion.
Here is an interesting twist for you though. Here in Texas we are required by the Inspection laws to provide our "Opinion" on the condition of a homes foundation. It's a game of semantics that we are displaying here. What
As I'm running out to get two new plats for items coming up for initial auction, I agree with with mostly everything you say. The home inspectors have gotten better through the years, but there is still room for improvement. Like if there are serious flaws give them a list of websites that discuss their possible issue and gives them a price range of what its going to fix. This way they will make an informed desicion of either to or not to go forward with the purchase. Who really wants to add another month and more expenses to the pre-purchase of a home. I tell my Realtor to give out a list of inspectors from outside of the county just to add a level of protection for the consumers (not saying anything is wrong with the ones in the county).
I want my husband to come do your electrical on your next flip.
Thanks for the offer, but my electrician does just fine for me. He does clean and tidy work. He even works nights and weekends. I get my quantity discount from him. But what I love about my contractors is that they clean up after themselves daily. I have never come to one of my sites after their gone and found trash/debris.
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With the amount of extras you want, we'd make a killing.
Doubtful, Due to I pay wholesale (or at least get my quantity discount). At one time I used to do multiple bids on jobs, but somehow he always ended up $100's below my lowest bid (w/o telling him what it was). And I've done background checks and he has never had a case brought up against him. Also when I've had county inspectors come out, they are amazed on how clean all of his work is.
Last edited by Pruzhany; 02-22-2010 at 12:39 PM..
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