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Dennis58, I think riveree is right on that statistic. All marriages have a 50-50 shot (sad but true). I think second marriages have a lower probability (sorry, but don't let that discourage you!).
Right, that's what i was saying. The last statistic I've seen had the divorce rate at 51%, I believe.
So, take Dennis' 2005 statistic of 89% of American women taking the husband's name when married. Nearly half of those women would now be -or will be in the future - divorced. If taking the husband's name in marriage was having any influence on the state of the marriage itself, the American divorce rate would not be so high, would it?
In other words - the majority of American women are still taking the husband's name and it's not making a bit of difference - they're getting divorced half the time anyway .
Men, you are giving your power away! If a fiance does not wish to change her name, you place such importance in that one small act that you're willing to say 'That's it! Deal-breaker! Wedding off!!'.
You are giving all your power to this one small fairly new tradition......the tradition decides whether you get married or not. The tradition decides whether this is the woman for you - 'nope, can't have this one, take that one over there, she'll change her name'. The tradition rules all.
You need to take your power back. YOU make the decision whether this is the woman for you, question tradition and cast it aside if need be. If others inquire as to why you didn't follow tradition, tell them YOU hold the power and you decided against tradition.
You'll feel so much better when tradition isn't holding you by the b*lls !
I'm not giving my power away and tradition is not holding me by the b*alls. My opinion on this issue is not based on tradition; it's based on what I think is important to sustain a life-long happy marriage.
You say it's a "small act" and others have called it a petty issue. I disagree. I think it represents a fundamental difference in values about marriage. And that makes it a big issue, IMO.
JMX, so what if she asked you to take her name? If you refused, wouldn't you be placing a higher importance on proving your independence and in "tradition" than on building a family together with her?
Huh? My point is that if two people marry, they should go by one family name. If I refused to take her name, then I wouldn't marry her. I wouldn't marry her and keep my name separate from hers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharPit
Doesn't make sense to me to pass on what could be the love of your life over something so absolutely trivial.
If she doesn't share the same values as me, then it's something not so trivial and, consequently, I doubt she would be the love of my life.
Right, that's what i was saying. The last statistic I've seen had the divorce rate at 51%, I believe.
So, take Dennis' 2005 statistic of 89% of American women taking the husband's name when married. Nearly half of those women would now be -or will be in the future - divorced. If taking the husband's name in marriage was having any influence on the state of the marriage itself, the American divorce rate would not be so high, would it?
In other words - the majority of American women are still taking the husband's name and it's not making a bit of difference - they're getting divorced half the time anyway .
Huh? My point is that if two people marry, they should go by one family name. If I refused to take her name, then I wouldn't marry her. I wouldn't marry her and keep my name separate from hers.
If she doesn't share the same values as me, then it's something not so trivial and, consequently, I doubt she would be the love of my life.
I dont believe that for me it would have much to do with "values"; at least not in a moral sense of speaking. It probably has more to do with tradition and just keeping things simple from my prospective. Co-dependency issues sometime come into play I believe. While I would truly enjoy a traditional marriage, I dont feel threatened by non-tradition either. Somewhat disappointed perhaps, but Ill be ok with that pretty much. What I dont like, and will never like is this important decision being based on the "ownership" theory. When this practice existed it was very wrong for sure. But refusing my name because of what happened back then sure seems very wrong too. Well, got to sign off for now. Take care all
I dont believe that for me it would have much to do with "values"; at least not in a moral sense of speaking. It probably has more to do with tradition and just keeping things simple from my prospective. Co-dependency issues sometime come into play I believe. While I would truly enjoy a traditional marriage, I dont feel threatened by non-tradition either. Somewhat disappointed perhaps, but Ill be ok with that pretty much. What I dont like, and will never like is this important decision being based on the "ownership" theory. When this practice existed it was very wrong for sure. But refusing my name because of what happened back then sure seems very wrong too. Well, got to sign off for now. Take care all
Dennis58 - I had an "ah-ha" moment where I could relate to how you feel...
My sister's dad remarried a woman who wouldn't wear her wedding ring. Not because it didn't fit but because she didn't want to get married. I could only speculate that in her mind symbolically not wearing the ring meant not being married (I guess her husband pressured her into getting married). I remember thinking, "wow, what a b*@ch. That's harsh. Why did he marry her?" That was 12 years ago and they are still married - happily. Somehow he managed to get over it. If that were me, I'd be hurt by it but it wouldn't be a deal breaker by any means. So, I can see why it bothers you so much now.
If you haven't done so already, at least tell her how you FEEL. "Woman, it really hurts me that you won't take my name. Though I respect your decision." And leave it at that. If you try to argue with her logic most likely she will resist (as most American women do - if she's American). She just might change her mind...
Dennis, has your fiancee mentioned any other reasons other than the "ownership" theory? I'm not saying that her reasoning isn't good enough, of course. But I have many friends who've been married and have chosen to keep their last names and we all usually have more than one reason.
Personally, the main reason why I kept my last name is because it just feels right to. There are logical reasons, as well. For instance, I felt that if I changed my name, I'd actually be throwing away the person I had always been. That didn't feel right at all. It wasn't just that I had established a career with my maiden name. It was that I had experienced decades of life with that name, decades of love and laughter and pain. My name felt like a part of my very soul. To change it - to throw it away - just felt dishonorable to the person I was and had always been.
Also, I resented the idea that it was expected of me to change my name simply because I was the woman in the relationship. No one expected my husband to change his name, but why? Because our bodies were made a little differently? Our marriage was based on the idea that we are equal partners & that we should accept one another as we are. But changing my name - changing my very identity - seemed contradictory to that idea. Why must I change something that is such a huge part of myself just because I'm female? I admit I felt resentful about that. Not resentful towards my darling husband, of course, but towards the grand assumption.
So I talked to my husband about it. He was a bit surprised that I wanted to keep my maiden name. He said that he had always just assumed that I would change my name, but since that's how I felt, he said he would respect my feelings and accept my decision.
Now some years have passed and, because of this thread, I asked my husband how he feels about our different names. He says that it honestly does not bother him at all. As we have seen amongst our own loved ones, it really isn't a name that bonds a family together. It is love and commitment. And we have that in spades.
I have to hand it to you MrsSteel, and Mommabear2, those were some well written replies. Im also glad you were now able to understand that it has never been my intention to bash or downgrade women who choose to keep their name. Its just the reason behind the decision that I have had a hard time with this situation. The secondary reason of course, is the document changes that would be necessary. For what its worth here, I guess I should mention that this woman was in an abusive marriage with a man who became alcoholic-beat up on her-cheated on her- all that sort of garbage. She stayed in that mess for over a decade thinking he was going to "change". I can honestly say that when a decent man becomes involved with a woman who has been thru that, he WILL pay the price for some of this other mans crimes. I know because Ive lived it. But since weve been together a pretty good while now, things are much better than in the beginning. So I have always kept in mind what she has been through, and this stuff Ive described probably has some influence on her decisions. Of course, this conclusion kinda takes me right back to where I started- Upset because I feel punished because of other mens ignorance! Thanks again for your well-written posts.
Thanks for your well written post .204. You share the traditional viewpoints that myself and probably most men have. Congratulations on your long and happy marriage. It sounds as though you married a woman who was willing to BE the woman. Most likely, she is one of those women who realize what century she is living in. Again, thanks for your letter of support, and I wish your wife and you continued happiness
Whoa, Dennis! This is the second post in which you wrote, "...a woman who was willing to BE the woman" in regards to changing her last name upon marriage. It is quite disheartening and rather offensive for you to imply that a woman who chooses to retain her maiden name is therefore not a woman, not feminie, etc. Or, is a bad wife, or even a nontraditional wife in some way. I once dated a man who was insistent on the idea that I take his last name if we were to marry, and you know what, I dumped him and it was one of the best decisions of my life. Although you claim you don't want to be affilitated with, or blamed due to the historical implications of name change linked to ownership, your words actually align you with the fear your fiance is expressing. What I am trying to say is, is that you are exhibiting that very same behavior that you claim to abhor.
My husband was very supportive in whatever I wanted to do with the last name thing, and we have a very happy marriage. I think his security with himself and with our union is what made the name changing topic a non-issue for him.
My last name dies with me. It is a name I am proud to have. I am proud of the people that gave it to me, and I am proud of the degrees that I have earned with that name, I am proud of the writing and teaching I have done with that name, and I am proud of the man I chose. My identity, for me, is linked with my name. I love that I am known by that name at school and by my students, and I also love that many people call me by my husband's last name (because they don't know that I retained my maiden name). And although there have been brief periods in which I have thought about changing it, comments like those you and others have expressed on this thread, have made me so very adamant in not changing it. Simply put, you don't have any idea what it means or how it feels to change your name until you have been asked to do it--it is a very big deal.
I think that you really need to support your fiance in this decision, because if you pressure her or continue to indicate that you are disappointed with her decision or reason or whatever, you will push her further and further away.
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If you refused, wouldn't you be placing a higher importance on proving your independence and in "tradition" than on building a family together with her?
I remember thinking, "wow, what a b*@ch. That's harsh. Why did he marry her?" That was 12 years ago and they are still married - happily. Somehow he managed to get over it. If that were me, I'd be hurt by it but it wouldn't be a deal breaker by any means. So, I can see why it bothers you so much now. 
Thanks for this insight
