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Did any of you taking the "con" side in this debate actually read the article in the OP? Because you're putting words/beliefs in Savage's mouth that he never actually said.
I bet that any marriage coupled with the fear of being stoned to death or beheadded if you leave would make any woman stay in a lousy marriage arrangement like that.
But it's "cultural" so it doesn't count, our "culture" isn't set up like theirs.
Not all cultures who practice polygamy, stone or behead their wives.
What are you talking about "our culture", Mormans in the United States practice polygamy.
Being open about what you want is NOT the same thing as sport f**king. That is a leap. He's not talking about that at all. Not everyone wants to do that.. not even most people. But the thing is, for the person who is really in to sport f**king and has no intention of stopping, wouldn't it be better for that person to tell any potential partner that up front, so that person could decide for themselves if that works for them? Right now what happens most of the time is that person marries someone anyway and just does it behind their partner's back.
I never said being open about what you want is the same as irresponsible sex.
I said people who engage in narcissistic behavior do not give a rip for what anyone else's needs are in a relationship. That's my point.
When someone is into promiscuous sex, they have no business being in a relationship with anyone who isn't cut from the same cloth. If they're not being honest about who they are in a relationship and they are using manipulation and deception to keep someone in the dark about their true nature - that is the problem. NOT that someone isn't having their needs met in a relationship, but that they are not being honest about who they are with their partner. It's not that the non-risky partner should change to conform to the partner having risky sex.
Not all cultures who practice polygamy, stone or behead their wives.
What are you talking about "our culture", Mormans in the United States practice polygamy.
Fundamentalist Mormons practice polygamy who are a minority of a minority and they live as outlaws, and do not conform to our cultural views in the United States about marriage. Mainstream Mormons do NOT practice polygamy.
I actually believe that before a couple becomes sexually involved they should discuss their fetishes, kinks, foibles and preferences so there are no disappointments or surprises.
I don't think it's realistic to expect people to fully know their own sexual preferences, especially in their late teens through their 20s, when most people become sexually active--let alone have a deep conversation about them. And if people wait to have sex until their marry or have a few equally inexperienced lovers, how are they going to know beforehand? Couples should be able to grow together, and sometimes you have to say, "Um, honey, I've come to realize I really like ____________" or "I'd like to try _____________," and then ask your sweetheart if he or she is willing to go along with you on that.
...religious memes. Monogamy is contrary to human nature, but it can ...
OMG and this is coming from the happily remarried guy. LOL At any rate, I somewhat agree. I'm going to respond to the belief that a lot of men seem to have that men are "naturally" prone to infidelity. A few of these men seem to cite "biological" reasons...sometimes likening human men to other animals who attempt to "impregnate" the maximum number of females of their species.
I don't think it's biological, though. At least not directly so.
For generations men have selected women based on "attractive" characteristics, which in women generally equated to physical weakness. For instance: small stature, small hands/feet, large "appendages" that make movement etc difficult. So we've pretty much been bred to be physically inferior to men, which historically put us in a subordinate position.
Men historically (at least for what looks like a LOT of mankind's most recent history), have found it acceptable to beat, kill and otherwise subjugate women for infidelity. Not that women don't at least occasionally get attracted to other men...but the stakes historically have been much higher for women. Women on the other hand, may have "felt" like killing the cheating spouse, but were physically unable to do so.
Religious indoctrination and social structures were also set up by the men to reinforce these types of relationships.
So, I think women just became used to being "faithful." Even without the direct threat of violence, I believe years of violence and subjugation did their work, and many women are still apt to be faithful and to overlook the husband's infidelity.
This is not in just European and African history, but I have read some of the "Vedic" writings: The "religious" (and super racist and offensive, btw) writings of Hinduism. If memory serves correctly, women who cheated with lower-caste men were to be killed...the men just got a slap on the wrist.
The end result is that women have been behaviorally conditioned to be extremely faithful (on the whole) in word, thought and deed to husbands. For several men, this still seems to be a foreign concept.
But the world is changing yet again, and women are gaining more power and rights. As a result, I think it may be more "attractive" for men to remain faithful to their wives, if simply out of fear of the repercussions.
In recent history (ie the past couple of thousand years), the consequences for men who are unfaithful have been relatively light...leading a lot of them to excuse their behavior as "natural" or "OK."
I contend that it is neither, and monogamy can become as much of a habit for men as it is for women. Or we may all just end up saying "bye bye" to marital monogamy, which is also possible.
I never said being open about what you want is the same as irresponsible sex.
I said people who engage in narcissistic behavior do not give a rip for what anyone else's needs are in a relationship. That's my point.
When someone is into promiscuous sex, they have no business being in a relationship with anyone who isn't cut from the same cloth. If they're not being honest about who they are in a relationship and they are using manipulation and deception to keep someone in the dark about their true nature - that is the problem. NOT that someone isn't having their needs met in a relationship, but that they are not being honest about who they are with their partner. It's not that the non-risky partner should change to conform to the partner having risky sex.
But
Savage has never advocated that the non risky parter change. He's saying the same thing you are. People should be honest so they can get with the right people. Be open to accommodating requests if you can, but if it is not for you then walk away.
All he is saying that you CAN be married and not be monogamous if that kind of thing works for you and your partner. Not that everyone, or even most, HAVE to be that way.
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At any rate, I somewhat agree. I'm going to respond to the belief that a lot of men seem to have that men are "naturally" prone to infidelity. A few of these men seem to cite "biological" reasons...sometimes likening human men to other animals who attempt to "impregnate" the maximum number of females of their species.
