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There are so many valid pointers in this entire thread.
Instead of dating, joining hobbies, clubs, social functions (when the COVID virus dies down) meeting someone new in a shared hobby is more fun than
the dating scene at a restaurant - or the movies (He makes his move; his arm around) why repeat the normal scenario of the dating scene?
Meeting someone in a hobby function (for example) and building up a friendship, getting to know each other slowly without sex in the picture for a few months. Become the special friend who he calls every break, every Friday night; go for walks, talk, stay outside away from the bedroom for a while. You know he wants it, but you have shifted your priorities =- sex comes last. Be very honest about getting to know this man. You want a solid relationship, one that will survive longer than a few hours outside of the bedroom. RESPECT is a major deal but it's earned and not given.
No dating scene? Arm around the shoulders is too much? For months? No offense, but what you’re describing is the friendzone. Guys know that developing feelings under those circumstances is a path to a broken heart. (I’d imagine it’s somewhat similar to women developing feelings for a guy who’s using them for a sexual connection.) I wouldn’t put up with it, and I’m a guy who has zero options romantically. I might hang out with you but I would write you off as a romantic prospect. Guys who actually have options are probably not even going to do that much.
Location: Unlike most on CD, I'm not afraid to give my location: Milwaukee, WI.
1,789 posts, read 4,152,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mir86
Is it just the timing of meeting a guy who happens to want a relationship at the time he meets a woman or is there something a woman does that makes a guy only reduce her to booty call status instead of pursuing a relationship? Not sure if that question makes sense to you but ya..I was wondering..
You say "booty call status" like that's a bad thing....
I’ve met those women who have always been “booty calls”. They’ve wanted to be in relationship, but the way they interact with men was all wrong. They’re usually the low self-esteem type. They tend to be desperate to be in a relationship with men, and stay with the men even when the men treat them like FWB. Nothing wrong with FWB relationship if both parties desire it, but it’s heart-broken for the women if they want more.
I believe if there was friendship that a botty call was added to it can become a serious relationship. I doubt most only booty calls can ever become a serious relationship.
I think where some women go awry is they blame themselves and think they need to try harder, do better, if a guy is treating her like a booty call. She internalizes the poor treatment and asks what she is doing wrong, instead of asking the right question: "What is wrong with him?"
And our "boys will be boys" culture encourages this kind of thinking.
Even the way the OP is phrased implies "What does the girl do differently to make him see her as girlfriend?"
Here is a reality: every woman is potential booty call to the guys who are successful at dating. Even if she's talented, successful, beautiful, if he can get her with little effort and keep getting her, she's booty call. Maybe that woman is ok with that situation and doesn't want more. In that case, win win.
But a woman who is overly forgiving, overly understanding, accomodating, IOW a doormat, is going to accept crumbs and blame herself that he's not treating her like he values and respects her.
I think this phenomenon is getting worse lately because of the dating apps and Netflix and chill, etc. Guys are getting lazier and lazier, at least the ones who have the skills to attract women. They are getting on the apps and cashing in like Vegas. And the women are wondering why they keep getting pumped and dumped and can't keep a man. Then there is a whole segment of men that never get any at all.
It's a sad state of affairs for those attempting to date now. Only one group or small segment of the population is really getting what they want. (The guys who are able to get laid with little effort. And the minority of women that only want to hook up with said guys.)
The sexual revolution has had interesting and unexpected results.
Can the genie be put back in the bottle? Do we want it to be?
Where do we go from here?
Perhaps the traditional relationship is on its way to becoming obsolete. Hook up culture is replacing regular dating. Marriage is on the decline. Women agree to be booty called by men who have vast harems. Often not even exchange for "good sex," just for the hope that maybe, some day, he will *pick* her. Or a subconscious wish that an unexpected pregnancy will force him to marry her. Ladies either become celibate (go on strike) or learn to share.
I see the dynamic only becoming further entrenched in the future. The dating apps aren't going away. The guys who know how to manipulate women are only getting better at it as they share tips and tricks. And feminine nature is still to be forgiving and accomodating to men. And the angry incels shall possibly continue to use guns to try to be heard.
Nobody is at fault. It's just human nature which has been allowed free reign due to the revolution. A kind of mass social experiment we are just starting to see the effects of.
Don't internalize the blame and misogyny though if a man booty calls you, or has sex with you based on lies. It's not a bad way to be to be trusting and forgiving. Women evolved to be kind nurturers, and we usually had a man we could rely on and depend on and could relax into our feminine softness knowing he would not exploit nor harm us.
Nowadays people in general just have less accountability towards each other. It's a jungle world for the most part.
So just don't let him booty call you if you don't want it. Maybe go to the library and start a conversation with a shy guy or join a friend group thing based on common interests. Get off the dating apps.
I think where some women go awry is they blame themselves and think they need to try harder, do better, if a guy is treating her like a booty call. She internalizes the poor treatment and asks what she is doing wrong, instead of asking the right question: "What is wrong with him?"
And our "boys will be boys" culture encourages this kind of thinking.
Even the way the OP is phrased implies "What does the girl do differently to make him see her as girlfriend?"
Here is a reality: every woman is potential booty call to the guys who are successful at dating. Even if she's talented, successful, beautiful, if he can get her with little effort and keep getting her, she's booty call. Maybe that woman is ok with that situation and doesn't want more. In that case, win win.
But a woman who is overly forgiving, overly understanding, accomodating, IOW a doormat, is going to accept crumbs and blame herself that he's not treating her like he values and respects her.
I think this phenomenon is getting worse lately because of the dating apps and Netflix and chill, etc. Guys are getting lazier and lazier, at least the ones who have the skills to attract women. They are getting on the apps and cashing in like Vegas. And the women are wondering why they keep getting pumped and dumped and can't keep a man. Then there is a whole segment of men that never get any at all.
It's a sad state of affairs for those attempting to date now. Only one group or small segment of the population is really getting what they want. (The guys who are able to get laid with little effort. And the minority of women that only want to hook up with said guys.)
The sexual revolution has had interesting and unexpected results.
Can the genie be put back in the bottle? Do we want it to be?
Where do we go from here?
Perhaps the traditional relationship is on its way to becoming obsolete. Hook up culture is replacing regular dating. Marriage is on the decline. Women agree to be booty called by men who have vast harems. Often not even exchange for "good sex," just for the hope that maybe, some day, he will *pick* her. Or a subconscious wish that an unexpected pregnancy will force him to marry her. Ladies either become celibate (go on strike) or learn to share.
I see the dynamic only becoming further entrenched in the future. The dating apps aren't going away. The guys who know how to manipulate women are only getting better at it as they share tips and tricks. And feminine nature is still to be forgiving and accomodating to men. And the angry incels shall possibly continue to use guns to try to be heard.
Nobody is at fault. It's just human nature which has been allowed free reign due to the revolution. A kind of mass social experiment we are just starting to see the effects of.
Don't internalize the blame and misogyny though if a man booty calls you, or has sex with you based on lies. It's not a bad way to be to be trusting and forgiving. Women evolved to be kind nurturers, and we usually had a man we could rely on and depend on and could relax into our feminine softness knowing he would not exploit nor harm us.
Nowadays people in general just have less accountability towards each other. It's a jungle world for the most part.
So just don't let him booty call you if you don't want it. Maybe go to the library and start a conversation with a shy guy or join a friend group thing based on common interests. Get off the dating apps.
You say "boys will be boys," but to me it has more to do with the sexual revolution you mentioned, and also evolution. The advent of the ability to have virtually consequence-free sex (in terms of pregnancy and even STD's) has busted the sexual marketplace wide open, and extended people's stays on it.
People, like all animals, are driven by nature to reproduce. For women that usually manifests in the desire for a steady mate to help provide for offspring. For men that usually manifests in the desire to mate as often as possible, and sometimes with as many partners as possible, hence, the male urge for easy, casual sex, and the female urge to partner up and mate.
Crudely, that is amplified in the discussion at hand. As you note, women on the receiving end of a booty call will sometimes think that there is something wrong with the either themselves or the men doing the calling, when the breakdown is, the women are wondering why the men aren't wanting the same thing they want (namely, a relationship). I argue that it's less "boys will be boys" and more "boys will be male members of a species whose strong instinct to reproduce manifests by trying to mate as often and as broadly as possible."
The sexual revolution, and with it the possibility of consequence-free sex, has allowed that sort of behavior to continue for as long in a particular person's life as they are able to effect it; some men carry on for decades, into their 50's and 60's even, because they're able to get away with the easy sexual encounters with women.
As you also note, though, that sort of mating strategy is really only wildly successful for a smaller subset of the population. The men at the top of the sexual food chain...feast, frankly. Largely, they can have their pick. So can the most sexually attractive women, but they will tend to settle down faster than men will, so, I think there is a larger population of sexually promiscuous men for the simple reason they just tend to go longer on the dating market. That said...I think a lot of women chase those sorts of guys...the guys who are exciting, interesting, attractive, charming, etc. That leaves out a lot of people who aren't at the top of the food chain...guys who struggle, and women who shut those guys down while they wait for Prince Charming.
I've experienced a microcosm of this. I twice asked out a woman I know. I think she's an attractive, interesting woman who I have a lot in common with. She's also a few years older than me and a few pounds heavier than me. She rejected me. Instead, she pines for a young, dapper, fit guy nearby. Good guy, really good looking. The ladies swoon over him, including her. She chases him for attention. I've pointed it out to him on social media, actually..."Dude, look, she's into you, go for it." But he doesn't. Too many other options. And for her...he's the only option good enough, and if he doesn't come around to that, she's just fine being single. Meanwhile, I sit here, as sought-after and revered as chopped liver and mayonnaise.
You say, be celibate, or learn to share. I say the same thing that has been said to me when I've asked for help dating: Why not lower your standards? Why spurn the good-but-plentiful for the perfect-but-rare?
You say "boys will be boys," but to me it has more to do with the sexual revolution you mentioned, and also evolution. The advent of the ability to have virtually consequence-free sex (in terms of pregnancy and even STD's) has busted the sexual marketplace wide open, and extended people's stays on it.
People, like all animals, are driven by nature to reproduce. For women that usually manifests in the desire for a steady mate to help provide for offspring. For men that usually manifests in the desire to mate as often as possible, and sometimes with as many partners as possible, hence, the male urge for easy, casual sex, and the female urge to partner up and mate.
Crudely, that is amplified in the discussion at hand. As you note, women on the receiving end of a booty call will sometimes think that there is something wrong with the either themselves or the men doing the calling, when the breakdown is, the women are wondering why the men aren't wanting the same thing they want (namely, a relationship). I argue that it's less "boys will be boys" and more "boys will be male members of a species whose strong instinct to reproduce manifests by trying to mate as often and as broadly as possible."
The sexual revolution, and with it the possibility of consequence-free sex, has allowed that sort of behavior to continue for as long in a particular person's life as they are able to effect it; some men carry on for decades, into their 50's and 60's even, because they're able to get away with the easy sexual encounters with women.
As you also note, though, that sort of mating strategy is really only wildly successful for a smaller subset of the population. The men at the top of the sexual food chain...feast, frankly. Largely, they can have their pick. So can the most sexually attractive women, but they will tend to settle down faster than men will, so, I think there is a larger population of sexually promiscuous men for the simple reason they just tend to go longer on the dating market. That said...I think a lot of women chase those sorts of guys...the guys who are exciting, interesting, attractive, charming, etc. That leaves out a lot of people who aren't at the top of the food chain...guys who struggle, and women who shut those guys down while they wait for Prince Charming.
I've experienced a microcosm of this. I twice asked out a woman I know. I think she's an attractive, interesting woman who I have a lot in common with. She's also a few years older than me and a few pounds heavier than me. She rejected me. Instead, she pines for a young, dapper, fit guy nearby. Good guy, really good looking. The ladies swoon over him, including her. She chases him for attention. I've pointed it out to him on social media, actually..."Dude, look, she's into you, go for it." But he doesn't. Too many other options. And for her...he's the only option good enough, and if he doesn't come around to that, she's just fine being single. Meanwhile, I sit here, as sought-after and revered as chopped liver and mayonnaise.
You say, be celibate, or learn to share. I say the same thing that has been said to me when I've asked for help dating: Why not lower your standards? Why spurn the good-but-plentiful for the perfect-but-rare?
I agree with all you say here.
To add to the problem, I think most women are only willing to have casual sex with men who are more attractive than them (higher on the food chain). While men are willing to have casual sex with women of the same level of attractiveness or slightly lower (but still not significantly lower).
So that means that some women are going to be chasing or pining after guys who probably won't give them the time of day because he has too many other options.
I've seen these guys on the dating apps and they know they are popular and are cocky and arrogant about it. "If I don't reply to you it's probably because your message got buried under all the others so keep messaging until I reply." I saw a guy put that in his bio on a dating app.
I think it's often not that these guys are "superior" but they are just very good at marketing themselves and presenting a great exterior, they may get plastic surgery, they are gym buffs, or athletes, and they really upsell themselves. They don't mind bragging, flaunting, or exaggerating their achievements.
While guys like you who are down to earth and humble and would be better partners, but don't have this braggadocio flashiness to them, so they just get outshone in the meat market world of modern dating.
So the sexual revolution has just made things easier for the narcissistic men and feminine instinct to secure the best genes and partner possible furthers this.
So, yes, we have large numbers of people of both genders floundering trying to get dates or relationships because the Narcissists of the world have been given an ideal platform in the form of dating apps.
This is why my advice to anyone is to get off the apps. Give the shy guy a chance. Or the chubby older lady. Avoid the flashy ones on the apps unless you want to be one option among many; take a number and wait your turn to get a booty call.
I've seen these guys on the dating apps and they know they are popular and are cocky and arrogant about it. "If I don't reply to you it's probably because your message got buried under all the others so keep messaging until I reply." I saw a guy put that in his bio on a dating app.
I think it's often not that these guys are "superior" but they are just very good at marketing themselves and presenting a great exterior, they may get plastic surgery, they are gym buffs, or athletes, and they really upsell themselves. They don't mind bragging, flaunting, or exaggerating their achievements.
...
So the sexual revolution has just made things easier for the narcissistic men and feminine instinct to secure the best genes and partner possible furthers this.
That kind of line...”If I don’t reply it’s because my inbox is swimming”...is common to see in women’s profiles, and average or below average men are very obviously quagmired together in their inboxes. I’ve more or less been told this straight up by a woman who sent a couple of messaged me back a few times and then went dead silent for nearly a week before replying back to me with an obviously cookie-cutter response that she had copied and pasted to all the other slabs of meat on her counter. I told her that I didn’t feel like a party in a conversation as much as a part of a survey on her part, and that was it.
I wouldn’t call it narcissistic, though. That’s a diagnosable personality disorder. Instead, I would call it simple selfishness...looking out for #1. That’s a universally human trait, not a narcissistic one. You can criticize the goal...the desire for quick, easy sex...but we’ve all got goals. Wouldn’t you want to be easily successful at achieving your goals?
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