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Well, let's dispense with a conceit right off the bat.
There are plenty of sane, intelligent, and worldly people who have religious faith, and there are plenty of sane, intelligent, and worldly people who do not. If you believe in God, that's your prerogative. If you don't believe in God, that's also your prerogative. To knock someone else's belief or non-belief, however, is really an act of arrogance because nobody really knows. Belief, or the lack of belief, is not the same thing as knowledge. The two are utterly different.
That being said, religious faith deeply colors the lives of those who practice it. It affects their sense of ethics and morality, their approach to relationships and raising children, and a host of other things, even among those who just attend temple or church or whatever once in a blue moon. If you don't think that, I invite you to have a relationship with someone from a different religious faith. On the surface, they might crack jokes and make great conversation, but the differences will be deep and profound.
These differences, of course, can be overcome as long as there is mutual respect between the two. Where the breakdown comes is when one person really begins to insist on his or her way, running roughshod over the beliefs of the other partner. The coming of children is often where the divide begins, because suddenly the couple has to decide the religious tradition in which to raise children.
My wife was Catholic and I am Episcopalian. When we were engaged, I was pretty clear that I would not be converting, nor would I be asking the same of her. So we split our time between the two faiths until our daughter was born. Out of the blue, my wife decided she would be baptized in the Episcopal faith. We hadn't even really discussed it.
I was happy with the decision, but my wife's family was outraged. One brother-in-law claimed that we were "turning our backs on the family." It was a lame argument that I immediately countered by pointing out that he married a Baptist who became Catholic. Was she turning her back on hers? But that's the kind of grief we met. Twenty years later, my in-laws still have a hard time accepting it.
And those differences are between Catholics and Episcopalians, two faiths that share a lot in terms of liturgy and theological approaches. No, there's no celibate clergy in the Episcopal Church, there are women clergy, and no Pope. But there are lots of traditions the two faiths share. So if we encountered these issues, I can't imagine what kind of conflict would happen between two devout people from utterly different religious traditions.
All I am saying is that all religion is NOT anti-science. Including Catholicism. So what if 58% have a personal disbelief? Good for them. It doesn't automatically make the others who aren't "unintelligent" and "anti-science"does it... and it doesn't make people who aren't even scientists "anti-science" either. And if you take a minute to stop hating and insulting people who have differing opinions from you and look at that list, you will see modern day scientists on that list. Here I will help you:
Gerhard Ertl (1936– ) – German physicist who won the 2007 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his studies of chemical processes on solid surface.
Riccardo Giacconi (1913– ) – Nobel Prize-winning astrophysicist who laid the foundations of X-ray astronomy.
Paula González (1932–present) – Roman Catholic sister and professor of biology
Brian Kobilka (1955– ) – American Nobel Prize winning professor who teaches at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Craig Mello (1960– ) – American biologist who was awarded the 2006 Nobel Prize, with Andrew Fire, for the discovery of RNA interference.
Kenneth R. Miller (1948–present) – American cell biologist and molecular biologist who teaches at Brown University.[32]
Charles W. Misner (1932–present) – American cosmologist dedicated to the study of general relativity
Mario J. Molina (1943–present) - Mexican chemist and one of the precursors to the discovery of the Antarctic ozone hole (1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry).
John Polanyi (1929– ) – Canadian chemist who won the 1986 Nobel Prize for his research in chemical kinetics.[45]
Eric F. Wieschaus (1947– ) – He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
Antonino Zichichi (1929– ) – Italian nuclear physicist, former President of the Istituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare[50]
And again that list is just famous Catholic scientists. That doesn't include Hindu scientists, Buddhist scientists, Jewish scientists, Muslim scientists, or other Christian denominations. And it's JUST scientists... not doctors, dentists, teachers, or other highly educated people who I dare say are intelligent. Look, like I said, date who you want--that's your choice. But leave the insults out of it. There are intelligent people who are religious... atheism doesn't hold a monopoly on it.
You are way over the top with what I bolded.
I offered a different opinion, no more, no less.
Obviously there are smart people who believe in an invisaible diety. I can't relate but whatever.
No need to insuult me like that. I have enough life experience to know better.
Obviously there are smart people who believe in an invisaible diety. I can't relate but whatever.
No need to insuult me like that. I have enough life experience to know better.
It's an unwinnable argument either way and, ultimately, beside the point. I'm not sure why people think eminence in one field automatically translates into authority in another.
Obviously there are smart people who believe in an invisaible diety. I can't relate but whatever.
No need to insuult me like that. I have enough life experience to know better.
So it's insulting you to say that religious people can be just as intelligent as atheists? And that all people who are intelligent aren't all atheists. Interesting. But in all fairness, I am sorry if I insulted you. I still firmly think religion or lack of it has little to do with intelligence.
You called people who believe in religion unintelligent. I would concur that it's subtle bigotry and I wouldn't go as far as to say you, personally are a bigot. But what you stated still fits the definition. In that statement you treated people with contempt and intolerance based on their religion. You could have just said, "I only date other atheists" but instead you chose to insult others.
Freedom of speech is for the government... the government can make no law that inhibits freedom of speech. And there are limits. It has nothing to do with private individuals who aren't willing to let themselves be insulted without calling you out on it.
That's not what I said.
Do I think believing is dumb, yes.
That's quite different.
It doesn't make me a "bigot" just because I won't go out with a person who attends church services.
It's called a preference.
If I said I dislike people who go to church you would have a point. Fact is I do not feel that way at all.
You need to chill out, Jill. You sound very angry.
It doesn't make me a "bigot" just because I won't go out with a person who attends church services.
It's called a preference.
If I said I dislike people who go to church you would have a point. Fact is I do not feel that way at all.
You need to chill out, Jill. You sound very angry.
I am not exactly angry, but I am annoyed to be painted as stupid simply because I have a belief you don't. Are you saying you wouldn't defend yourself if I said something bigoted about atheists? Of course you would speak up. Most atheists do and rightfully so.
Look back at what I wrote. I didn't say you were a bigot, I said your words were bigoted. There is a difference. One is a reflection of your character and the other is carelessness of wording. Instead of just saying you can't date someone who practices a religion because you are atheist and you don't see it as compatible. You mocked people of faith painting stereotypes saying we are silly, not intelligent, not open-minded, anti-science, etc because you, personally don't believe the same things they do. I am saying it's simply not true.
With your follow up posts, I am getting the feeling that you didn't mean that. But it's not how it came across when you first said things like "I'd like a partner intelligent enough to have an open mind to recognize that no invisable man is in control of anything."
There are a LOT of different stripes of Protestant Christianity, but some people do think that "protestant" = conservative/bible-banging/evangelical. Not the case, though.
Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods (Georgia) it is overwhelmingly true that Protestant = evangelical. I'm speaking of my own experiences of course..but I grew up going to Catholic school and we were taught to love thy neighbor above all else. We were taught evolution, and that if you truly believe that God is the almighty creator, its OKAY to accept the ways we've discovered His world works. We were taught that it's OKAY to question your beliefs, and that good works is the path to heaven, not simply a strong belief in God (which is strictly a Protestant thing) We also didn't go around forcing our beliefs on others. All of the things I was taught goes directly against how many Protestants around here think.
How did this thread degenerate into a fight over the existence of god?
Because you essentially have two groups of self-important, self-satisfied people desperate to be right. The two camps are typically far more similar than they care to admit.
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So what if 58% have a personal disbelief? Good for them. It doesn't automatically make the others who aren't "unintelligent" and "anti-science"does it... and it doesn't make people who aren't even scientists "anti-science" either. And if you take a minute to stop hating and insulting people who have differing opinions from you and look at that list, you will see modern day scientists on that list. Here I will help you:
