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It's not always bad choices. Human relationships believe it or not is more about luck and being in the right place at the right time. How you think so many undeserving people get married and make babies?
Or, they (women) had fewer options because they were almost always dependent on their husband for support, and divorce was taboo for many, most, due to religious and cultural reasons. So even if there were many unhappy marriages (and I am unconvinced the majority were truly happy, vs. happy-looking for appearance sake), divorce was not a viable option.
It's not exactly high now. It is a myth that divorce rates are significantly higher today than previous years. And even if they were higher today, it means couples are realizing they're not compatible for whatever reason, which is a good thing. People shouldn't be together if they're not a good fit. The concept of compatibility, beyond the basic/superficial stuff, coming from a "good" or Christian family, having "good" values, likely had very different meaning for past generations, and for a variety of reasons. Many idealize the institution of marriage of the past, romanticize what they think it used to be and what it meant in the "olden days," instead of what it actually was.
No I'm pretty sure the divorce rate being higher than its even been is not some myth. What rock have you been living under? Then of course I've heard that 70% of divorces are filed by the woman so that's a bit of a damning statistic if true. (For the record I believe it is.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphysique
If what you really mean to say is: "I prefer the institution of marriage from my grandparents' days because women were chaste, had fewer rights and options. Women knew their place, didn't compete with men in the workforce, gave up sex when asked, kept their opinions and thoughts to themselves, made sammiches, and reared children. Men had the power and authority and had the final say in all things."
Then, yeah, good riddance to marriage of the olden days.
You say all that like it's a snarky joke but what evidence do you really have that women are happier in 2016 than they were in 1956 when they were making "sammiches" all day? All I hear about these days is how hard women have it and how much life sucks being one. Rhetorically speaking, what the hell do women want anyway? Mod cut.
Last edited by PJSaturn; 07-12-2016 at 07:32 AM..
Reason: Gencer bashing.
It's not always bad choices. Human relationships believe it or not is more about luck and being in the right place at the right time. How you think so many undeserving people get married and make babies?
And this has always been the case to an extent.
Yet now, as then, people get together.
You'd prefer it if some woman married you because she couldn't get any better option and she didn't want to be a "spinster," then she turned out to be an alcoholic who "cut off" sex after the first year and developed a shopping habit that wiped out every bit you managed to put away for retirement, but society told you you COULDN'T divorce her, so you had to live this way for the next 45 years? Really?
It seems appealing to you that some woman would just have to marry you and "couldn't" divorce you, but think twice...because being trapped worked both ways in the Good Old Days.
By the way, some people absolutely did have trouble getting anyone to go out with them even back then, probably approximately the same types of people who have trouble now: shy and awkward or unfortunate-looking (the "most beautiful" were the coveted and snapped up even back then, make no mistake) or the man with the meh job who "couldnt support" the girl or whatever.
You're rewriting history, but ask any 70-year-old who is basically honest and you'll hear some doozie dating stories and if REALLY honest, the whispers of which wife always had a black eye or which husband was always snapping bras, much to his suffering wife's humiliation. My mom's stories were often sweet, cute, fun, but sometimes were just...dark. You can't say things were more wonderful in a given time period if you weren't there. You're envisioning the Hallmark or sitcom version of real life.
You say all that like it's a snarky joke but what evidence do you really have that women are happier in 2016 than they were in 1956 when they were making "sammiches" all day? All I hear about these days is how hard women have it and how much life sucks being one. Rhetorically speaking, what the hell do women want anyway? I swear they're the most fickle and pesky creatures in the universe.
Well, we do have the evidence that those 50s sammich makers and more crucially, their horrified daughters watching Mom pop doctor-ordered bennies to stay awake at 11:00 still ironing while Dad was out doing his secretary (whoops, shhhh!) were the ones who risked absolutely everything to fight tooth and nail for their right to work, get decent pay and get and stay the hell out of that situation.
I mean that to me does not scream "we are so happy and fulfilled."
Rather it pretty much screams, "I'd rather lose every one of my family and friends as a social pariah than be forced into that prison."
Just my take on the situation. I wasn't an adult then. But it stands to reason that many though of course not all women were the diametric opposite of happy and fulfilled, given the evidence of what happened immediately after that Golden Period.
Well, we do have the evidence that those 50s sammich makers and more crucially, their horrified daughters watching Mom pop doctor-ordered bennies to stay awake at 11:00 still ironing while Dad was out doing his secretary (whoops, shhhh!) were the ones who risked absolutely everything to fight tooth and nail for their right to work, get decent pay and get and stay the hell out of that situation.
I mean that to me does not scream "we are so happy and fulfilled."
Rather it pretty much screams, "I'd rather lose every one of my family and friends as a social pariah than be forced into that prison."
Just my take on the situation. I wasn't an adult then. But it stands to reason that many though of course not all women were the diametric opposite of happy and fulfilled, given the evidence of what happened immediately after that Golden Period.
Eh, you sound like my mother, who still to this day assumed the entire world worked that way at the time just because it happened to work that way between her parents. There were plenty of women back then who did whatever they wanted and didn't give a crap what anybody thought and there are plenty of them now in 2016 who live "traditionally" by choice.
Eh, you sound like my mother, who still to this day assumed the entire world worked that way at the time just because it happened to work that way between her parents. There were plenty of women back then who did whatever they wanted and didn't give a crap what anybody thought and there are plenty of them now in 2016 who live "traditionally" by choice.
And yet...there was a tremendous, game-changing, society-altering backlash that rocked the entire nation. Permanently.
Weird, considering only your mom and I had/have any objections and "plenty" of women were free as birds and happy.
Things that make ya go "hmm."
As for that last sentence: the operative phrase there is BY CHOICE. Which those "plenty of happy women" fought like holy hell to have. More stuff to make one go "hmm."
Too many choices... creates indecision and inflates expecations
Not enough time spent actaully building real relationships... relationships from which closer, perhaps, marriage like relationships can blossom.
Technology has allowed people to spread a wider network of people... but they all tend to be "low quality" and superficial connections. Too many choices.
It also depends on what you believe is "marriage material". If you want a traditional housewife and you live in an a metropolitan that generally attracts career oriented individuals (women too), then you are working the wrong dating pool.
But women being in the workforce is one thing that makes women marriageable. YMMV, but most guys don't want to have to support a woman who expects a free ride from the get-go.
Finding a good partner has always been a challenge. But in the past, people were expected to pair off at an early age, so they did, and then ended up regretting it some of the time, but divorce wasn't as easy, so they were stuck with their poor choices. Now everyone's much more free to choose, there's less family involvement in setting people up, less friend involvement, too, less class restrictions, so the field is wide open like never before. Plus, women are waiting longer; they're not using college to get their MRS degree. They're waiting to get set up in a good job, first, or they're going on to grad school, and postponing marriage even more.
I think you describe the situation for middle class women. But for the bottom 40% or 50% relationship quality is not so great. 40% of kids being born out of wedlock....not good for single moms or their kids.
I also think it's fair to say there's less of a philosophical commitment to getting married and staying married today. Once divorce got doing, many of the children of divorce decided they would avoid the pain of it by not getting married in the first place....but women will still go ahead and have kids as single parents, which is even worse.
Blame it on women competeing against men in the workforce more than at any point in the past.
Excuse me? Seriously? That sounds like you think men are the only ones who have a right to be in the workforce, and women are taking that away from them. Weird comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Europeanflava
But it seems to me that it's much harder to find someone to marry in 2016. There is just so much more stacked against people today(especially men) . . .
Maybe it has to do with you seeing women as a commodity, a prize to be won that will advance you to an ultimate goal. That's rather objectifying and dehumanizing. Why not look at women as interesting people you might want to get to know, and see if you get along and hit it off. See a woman as another human being to relate with and you might be able to find an equal partner. Stop looking for someone to step into the role of Wife. Pre-conceived roles and expectations aren't things that a real person usually just wants to slide themselves into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Europeanflava
. . . you did not see as many women trying to clean out a man and take everything he has in the name of revenge like many women of all ages do today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Europeanflava
. . . How you think so many undeserving people get married and make babies?
Mod cut. Truthfully, from what little you've written, you've revealed yourself to be not much of a prize yourself. So, I'd say that it's likely the reason you've not met anyone you'd like as a partner is more about you and your attitude than anything else.
Last edited by PJSaturn; 07-12-2016 at 07:38 AM..
Reason: Off-topic.
You'd prefer it if some woman married you because she couldn't get any better option and she didn't want to be a "spinster," then she turned out to be an alcoholic who "cut off" sex after the first year and developed a shopping habit that wiped out every bit you managed to put away for retirement, but society told you you COULDN'T divorce her, so you had to live this way for the next 45 years? Really?
It seems appealing to you that some woman would just have to marry you and "couldn't" divorce you, but think twice...because being trapped worked both ways in the Good Old Days.
By the way, some people absolutely did have trouble getting anyone to go out with them even back then, probably approximately the same types of people who have trouble now: shy and awkward or unfortunate-looking (the "most beautiful" were the coveted and snapped up even back then, make no mistake) or the man with the meh job who "couldnt support" the girl or whatever.
You're rewriting history, but ask any 70-year-old who is basically honest and you'll hear some doozie dating stories and if REALLY honest, the whispers of which wife always had a black eye or which husband was always snapping bras, much to his suffering wife's humiliation. My mom's stories were often sweet, cute, fun, but sometimes were just...dark. You can't say things were more wonderful in a given time period if you weren't there. You're envisioning the Hallmark or sitcom version of real life.
Old times were better for relationships in some ways. In my opinion liberated women has all but destroyed the dream of a healthy female relationship for some men.
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