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Because that is the view that some have. That's why I keep seeing references to "property" here. To people who have a biblical/traditional view, (I know many don't, that's cool) that's like taking a shot at women who prefer these types of relationships, and I'm not property. I saw another quote from a poster that said Katiethegreat had a "cowardice" view.
Anyway, I digress again... I respect everybody's view as long as it doesn't impede on my own. Cheers to you as well
And SAHD/M are fine with me...that work is harder than a lot of ppl truly know.
Well, historically, which includes ANE cultures and antiquity, that was the marital dynamic, based on cultural and societal customs. That's pretty well established in ancient history across multiple cultures, and the Tanakh and Pauline epistles.
And I'm intimately familiar with the "traditional" view, as I lived it as it is practiced in far more strict religious cultures (like, say, Duggars et al.) I hesitate to say "biblical" because there are numerous interpretations of what it means in today's modern world. Even today's modern sensibilities shape the way old customs and traditions are interpreted.
I won't knock anyone who lives their truth, but I'll sure as heck challenge any notion that "traditional" should be in any way universal.
So wait a second. You're instead going to reply to ME who never said any such thing? In thinking about it, I wonder if that person is someone I ignore.
Do you know what the qualification "from a practical standpoint means" or does your understanding stop with the word "better"? Do you disagree with the particulars of that practical consideration like death, disability and the like?
For the record, many people who are confident in their choices don't get particularly defensive when someone else thinks there ways is better or right. Just so you know. That happens.
Now hold on a minute, I'm replying to YOU because drumroll..... YOU QUOTED ME. I never referred to you until you quoted MY post. That's what started this little exchange.
Ahhh so you really do wanna get catty... OK!.... When you say "better" regardless of whether it's from a "practical standpoint" or not... I'll break this down for you: IT...IS...STILL...AN....INSULT....TO...THE..PERSON ...YOU...ARE...TALKING...TO (Regardless of your intent)...
Would you like to know why?....Because you are STILL saying your way is better (not just for you, but period.) and it still sounds snobby. And NO your view is NOT better from a "practical standpoint" from my POV and I've already told you why in our last exchange. What ppl do when their spouses are on disability has nothing to do with the price of tea in China because you can have a traditional marriage view and still get out their and help provide for your family. People do it everyday.
For the record, people who are confident about point of view and life choices don't need to tell others why their way is "better" than others because they are to busy being living proof of it.
Last edited by BrowningPoeFrost; 09-12-2017 at 01:28 PM..
Well, historically, which includes ANE cultures and antiquity, that was the marital dynamic, based on cultural and societal customs. That's pretty well established in ancient history across multiple cultures, and the Tanakh and Pauline epistles.
And I'm intimately familiar with the "traditional" view, as I lived it as it is practiced in far more strict religious cultures (like, say, Duggars et al.) I hesitate to say "biblical" because there are numerous interpretations of what it means in today's modern world. Even today's modern sensibilities shape the way old customs and traditions are interpreted.
I won't knock anyone who lives their truth, but I'll sure as heck challenge any notion that "traditional" should be in any way universal.
That's fine but just know that your challenge will be countered by ppl who don't agree with you. I am not talking about cultures from a thousand years a ago, because I don't live in a Pauline World I live now... The Duggars... Paul (who wasn't even married)... Tanakh... They aren't me. I have to live my life now, and what doesnt work for me is the notion that Egalitarian advocates feel that they have standing to place their own view at the top tier of the way relationships should be...especially when those egalitarians are not religious. If you're not religious then everything... Ethics.... Morality... Marriage....Everything is relative to culture experience. How, then, can someone who is philosphically NOT religious tell me that their way is better either practically or ethically (or in any way really)...to whom are you appealing for such a stance outside of your own perspective?
Last edited by BrowningPoeFrost; 09-12-2017 at 01:35 PM..
For myself, I have never gotten an explanation of what this male leadership even looks like on a day to day basis. I don't really know what this leadership thing looks like. I don't need to be led. I know how to make a decision. Any decision that is mid to large size requires both of us anyway...
Exactly.
I know how it's supposed to look in certain "traditional" relationship dynamics, but short of requiring everyone to convert to whatever ideology to make that happen, how is it supposed to play out? I'm familiar with the principles that place the husband at the head of the household, who makes final decisions, controls finances, has expectations for how children are to be raised, how the wife is to behave, acts as the spiritual leader; however, this dynamic exists within certain brands of ideology/religion.
Conveniently, many who are vocal proponents like the "traditional" ways of past eras without all the not-so fun customs of being traditionally religious and adhering to strict interpretations of past eras' doctrines. Imagine that. They're not remotely consistent with their fave era's customs.
I lol at the dudes who lament about evil wimmenz and how it was worlds better "before" when things were far easier for mediocre men 'cause what options did most women have, anyway? It didn't require much effort to standout because "women" had so few options that just being okay-enough will do. They idolize this era, but then throw conniptions because they have "standards" and want women who are driven, UMC, "have their **** together" (financially stable and kid-free), and not care about income and status. (if they're traditional, shouldn't they care?)
There are more holes in this logic than swiss cheese. They want a "modern woman" who does modern things like work and "fornicate," but not so modern in how she chooses a life partner. She needs to dial that back to 1950s. Lofreakingl. They want a traditional woman from a traditional time when women sought providers (that they claim are intrinsic to male-female mate selection), but then get irate when some of today's women have their own requirements that may exclude certain men.
If they were just honest and said they want the kind of "traditional" woman who won't exclude them for making shy of six figures or for being vertically challenged, etc. I like how they blame height requirements on women while failing to recognize the biological and evolutionary factors that contribute to these preferences (like their preference for young and svelte). They argue that such men weren't left out "back then" because the customs and time being what it was, women had fewer options, so that "nearly guaranteed less than average men had a mate." *shudder*
Now hold on a minute, I'm replying to YOU because drumroll..... YOU QUOTED ME. I never referred to you until you quoted MY post. That's what started this little exchange.
LOL. Sorry about that.
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Ahhh so you really do wanna get catty... OK!.... When you say "better" regardless of whether it's from a "practical standpoint" or not... I'll break this down for you: IT...IS...STILL...AN....INSULT....TO...THE..PERSON ...YOU...ARE...TALKING...TO (Regardless of your intent)...
Only if you get insulted I guess. If you said, from a biblical standpoint, you are wrong because god says so, I would not be particularly insulted. I don't operate from a biblical standpoint.
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Would you like to know why?....Because you are STILL saying your way is better (not just for you, but period.)
Well, I said it was better for a series of specific reasons, risks that I find helpful to mitigate.
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and it still sounds snobby. And NO your view is NOT better from a "practical standpoint" from my POV and I've already told you why in our last exchange. What ppl do when their spouses are on disability has nothing to do with the price of tea in China because you can have a traditional marriage view and still get out their and help provide for your family. People do it everyday.
For the record, people who are confident about point of view and life choices don't need to tell others why their way is "better" than others because they are to busy being living proof of it.
I like it when people tell me what is better about their PoV. Maybe I will learn something. Go figure.
I'm all for having a spouse stay at home and take care of the children and household. It's not always feasible financially, but you have to remember too that day care costs and transportation and issues along those lines may or may not be worthwhile. I realize that this isn't just a financial decision but it's a reality. If you got a spouse not making a whole lot of money it just might not really be worth it. Plus to me it just feels better having family take care of kids. Again, the reality is for a lot of people that daycare is required.
With our First child it was agreed that she would stay at home... she wanted to.
With our Second child it was agreed that I would stay at home... I wanted to.
We planed on two only.... but ended up with twins.
Twins also meant double the costs in many cases; full time daycare for both would have been around $2500 per month. At that time too, I was a bit more aggressive in my career looking for more lucrative opportunities (placing my own interests secondary) while she went down the path of career choices that was more aligned with her interests (ie low paying.. she once took lower paying job because she didn't like the school principle).
By the time that the twins came into the picture, I was earning 2-3x her salary. We couldn't afford me NOT working.... But we certainly could afford her to stay at home and it made sense considering the cost of daycare.
So yes... it is reality... Do I have regrets? absolutely.... because it is a experience that I missed out on. Oh well.... life is unfair at times.... It wasn't my choice but rather a choice that I felt was denied.
My neighbor across the street was a SAHD. I'd say it was a good thing.... he is so much better with children. I can see it when he occasionally watches ours. There are a few other SAHD in the area. My wife was ok with it. So I think it is becoming a more accepting.... especially when women's place in society is equalizing with men.
That's fine but just know that your challenge will be countered by ppl who don't agree with you.
Oh, that's no problem. I've been doing that for well over a decade. Their position is baseless if it can't be supported without resorting to circular logic and other fallacies that struggle with argument from confusion.
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I am not talking about cultures from a thousand years a ago, because I don't live in a Pauline World I live now... The Duggars... Paul (who wasn't even married)... Tanakh... They aren't me.
And yet the customs of those eras, based on subjective interpretations relative to a specific time, are often used to support claims that a particular dynamic should be universal. So, while you may hold to your own interpretation of religious or spiritual doctrine, it doesn't change the fact that many principles and customs throughout time and culture were greatly influenced by said ancient traditions and subsequent interpretations that vary from era and denomination/sect.
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I have to live my life now, and what doesnt work for me is the notion that Egalitarian advocates feel that they have standing to place their own view at the top tier of the way relationships should be...especially when those egalitarians are not religious.
You do you. Great. My preferred relationship dynamic is top tier for me because it's what works and works really well. I support choice and everyone else choosing what's best for their relationships.
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If you're not religious then everything... Ethics.... Morality... Marriage....Everything is relative to culture experience.
Yeah...not exactly.
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How, then, can someone who is philosphically NOT religious tell me that their way is better either practically or ethically (or in any way really)...to whom are you appealing for such a stance outside of your own perspective?
What does not being "traditionally" inclined have to do with recognizing where certain customs and principles originated? If you're not attempting to claim your dynamic/worldview is the way, the truth and the light, etc., for others, then no big deal. Do you.
When it comes to personal preference, it's pointless to make sweeping, absolute claims when an individual's choice is of no importance to random people and strangers.
I mean, I have friends with dominant personalities and egalitarian relationships, but prefer D/s sexual relationships. I'm not into extreme kink, but hey, if others are, great. *shrug*
Myself, I'd have no problem with a sahd as long as there was enough income to run the household and daddy actually took care of the kids properly and did the household chores.
If I went to work every day and came home to dirty kids and no food in the house because the shopping didn't get done because daddy spent his day playing video games or drinking with his buddies, that would be a problem. I suspect that is a problem in the reverse situation, too, because I've heard some bitter complaining from men about wives who lay around all day watching TV and buying on the shopping channels while the house looks lIke a pig sty..
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