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I would not say it's overrated, IMO. Of course, I'm trying to figure out how is it being overrated? Who is overrating it?
There are a great many people who believe/assume that One True Love model is the only valid model. Practically our whole society is built on that notion.
Hey hey ya'll... Don't you think we've skated close enough to the line of "arguably not PG-13" up in here without adding bickering to the situation? I like this thread. I think it's got a TON of valuable insight from different perspectives on a kind of relationship style that people don't talk about much (using the word "relationship" very loosely here.) Let's try not to get it canned, alright, please?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grlzrl
I don't necessarily think women are plotting from the beginning to trick someone into a relationship with sex. I think they think they can have sex without attachment and get attached and then hope the guy commits. Sex changes things. Have you ever seen When Harry Met Sally? They sleep together when they are friends and he tries to act like nothing happened and continue being friends and she gets mad because he acts like it meant nothing. It's a very well written scene. Although probably in most cases, the woman would spend a long time asking her friends 'what do you think this means when he does this or that?' and not get mad like Sally did.
Well yeah, things can get kinda dodgy when feelings get involved anyways, but I really think that this is a failure in communication. Fact is, most folks I know, do not sit down and HONESTLY negotiate with regard to romantic or sexual connections with other people. I know tons of people who think that even talking about STI status is just such a mood killer that they don't wanna. Let alone having the conversation like, "OK so I know that our parameters were originally set at a FWB place, but I think it's only fair I let you know that I am developing some loving feelings for you, and beginning to see you differently. I don't want you to feel threatened by this, but I'd like to ask if you would consider altering the landscape or do you prefer to keep it as it is?"
Mainly what seems to blow some people's minds, is that having loving feelings for someone does not in fact mean that you've got to insist on new terms. "I love you" doesn't mean:
- I demand exclusivity in terms of your sexual partners, emotional connections, and social activity.
- I demand that we start planning to move in together.
- Here comes Bridezilla!
- I WANT BABIES.
- I'm totally going to throw away your favorite recliner and your action figures.
Love does not have to be a trap. Literally every aspect of a connection between two people should be voluntary and both should consent to it, or it shouldn't happen. Period. And I think that a lot of this conflict comes from assumptions and lack of clear communication. It's not so much "sex changes things, and it just doesn't work," it's more like, "these people aren't putting in the effort to use their words, state their needs, respectfully hear the other person's needs, and be honest about what they've possibly got to offer, and what they really do not." It does not have to be as confusing as people often make it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisTown123
Yep, the FWB is pretty much masturbation, but without the hand/vibrator. Although, I know a female friend that would do this with a MARRIED man. A co-worker, that way they'd have no attachments. She told me that human contact can fulfill her needs than any vibrator would.
I am sorry that your experience has given you this impression. One of the best lovers I've ever had was casual. My relationship I'm in that makes me very happy today, began as casual. Where casual means "No stated plan or expectation to escalate though the milestones of gf/bf labels, exclusivity, cohabitation, marriage, etc." That changed...but it changed gradually.
What you said here, is actually how I've heard a number of married people with lackluster sex lives describe relations with their spouse. A committed relationship doesn't automatically make sex better. Sometimes the blaze and dazzle of an exciting new lover can make it an incredible experience. In fact I'd say that some of the most promiscuous people I know, are chasing that "NRE" (New Relationship Energy) high. Once it wears off, they get bored and restless and move on, and it's one reason they keep things casual, because they know that about themselves. I know both men and women who do this.
I quoted you, not just ascribed to, but actually quoted gendered terms from your quotes, to use in my example, that’s your user name, and your post?
Sorry you feel attacked, my saying I don’t feel the need to defend my choices is not the same as being defensive... this is weird
I don’t feel attacked, I just wonder what the eff you are talking about. I suppose you are confusing me with someone else, since you only quoted me once and the quote was actually agreeing with your sentiment that women can be ok with casual sex Sometimes the quote function is glitchy so perhaps that explains it. Besides that I have no idea what a gendered term is. LOL
I can tell you that not all are "hoping for more". There is no more at the time, we aren't all programmed for the picket fence and bumping elbows eating hot dish on tv trays. Or maybe our needs change. Just like a previous poster warning that one of the FWB "might get feelings" --Well hopefully they both do? So strange that this is seen as a danger. Having "feelings" is in no way synonymous with getting married or living in a trailer with matching tshirts or matching range rovers at the mc mansion, or matching anything other than the feeling of enjoying each others company.
Some say: "I can't turn off my brain and have sex". Well luckily that's about the worst description we've had in this thread. It usually seems to take turns with one opinion describing the other views as 'wrong' or 'less than' or 'shady' or 'left needing' there isn't that with people who actually choose this. I can't turn my brain off and forget I have opinions and choices, so there isn't any picking out of things that we both will like on a daily basis, there's a lot of what will be best for me, finally! It only sounds selfish if you haven't come in second place to to other people's needs and wants most of your adult life.
I never desired the white picket fence, but I did want to be loved. I wanted to be cared about. I was not able to have casual sex without getting attached. I tried (many times lol). It is very painful to have sex with someone when you are emotionally attached and they do not return the feelings.
Well everyone is an individual and makes their own individual decisions, a biological programming is different between men and women. Women were programmed to have one mate, and when we have sex with a man bonding chemicals are released by our bodies. This is fact. This is not how men were designed biologically as they were designed to spread their seed far and wide.
Again individual certainly can exercise conscious choice, but we cannot prevent those chemicals from being released and affecting how we feel.
I am in the midst of a conversation with a professional escort [I have never hired her services], she is telling me that most men are very 'selfish in bed' meaning that they will never bring a woman to orgasm.
My question to her, and to you, if this is true, then what motivates a woman to have any further sex again?
If a man does not focus on pleasing a woman, why should that woman ever agree to casual sex a second time?
Keep in mind the content of her comment. They're paying her. She's providing a service. It wouldn't cross their minds that they, the clients, should reciprocate and provide a service to her.
OTOH, if she was including in that statement her own personal relationships, that's another matter. I think the issue of selfishness in bed comes up more with ONS, where the guys have nothing invested in a casual encounter, no attachment or bond to the woman. In fact, there have been guys here on this forum who have said, that for ONS they don't bother.
This is why many women don't jump into sex early in the dating process. Maybe those that do, have been lucky, and haven't run into too many selfish guys?
[quote=Sonic_Spork;55881167]Hey hey ya'll... Don't you think we've skated close enough to the line of "arguably not PG-13" up in here without adding bickering to the situation? I like this thread. I think it's got a TON of valuable insight from different perspectives on a kind of relationship style that people don't talk about much (using the word "relationship" very loosely here.) Let's try not to get it canned, alright, please?
Well yeah, things can get kinda dodgy when feelings get involved anyways, but I really think that this is a failure in communication. Fact is, most folks I know, do not sit down and HONESTLY negotiate with regard to romantic or sexual connections with other people. I know tons of people who think that even talking about STI status is just such a mood killer that they don't wanna. Let alone having the conversation like, "OK so I know that our parameters were originally set at a FWB place, but I think it's only fair I let you know that I am developing some loving feelings for you, and beginning to see you differently. I don't want you to feel threatened by this, but I'd like to ask if you would consider altering the landscape or do you prefer to keep it as it is?"
Mainly what seems to blow some people's minds, is that having loving feelings for someone does not in fact mean that you've got to insist on new terms. "I love you" doesn't mean:
- I demand exclusivity in terms of your sexual partners, emotional connections, and social activity.
- I demand that we start planning to move in together.
- Here comes Bridezilla!
- I WANT BABIES.
- I'm totally going to throw away your favorite recliner and your action figures.
Love does not have to be a trap. Literally every aspect of a connection between two people should be voluntary and both should consent to it, or it shouldn't happen. Period. And I think that a lot of this conflict comes from assumptions and lack of clear communication. It's not so much "sex changes things, and it just doesn't work," it's more like, "these people aren't putting in the effort to use their words, state their needs, respectfully hear the other person's needs, and be honest about what they've possibly got to offer, and what they really do not." It does not have to be as confusing as people often make it.
I am sorry that your experience has given you this impression. One of the best lovers I've ever had was casual. My relationship I'm in that makes me very happy today, began as casual. Where casual means "No stated plan or expectation to escalate though the milestones of gf/bf labels, exclusivity, cohabitation, marriage, etc." That changed...but it changed gradually.
Quote:
What you said here, is actually how I've heard a number of married people with lackluster sex lives describe relations with their spouse. A committed relationship doesn't automatically make sex better.
Quote:
Sometimes the blaze and dazzle of an exciting new lover can make it an incredible experience. In fact I'd say that some of the most promiscuous people I know, are chasing that "NRE" (New Relationship Energy) high. Once it wears off, they get bored and restless and move on, and it's one reason they keep things casual, because they know that about themselves. I know both men and women who do this.
Yeah, and chasing that dangling carrot isn't a good thing. Once it wears off, then it's off to someone else. There's this lack of constant dissatisfaction that's going on in their lives that they are never happy. The bolded can be sadly likened to that of a kid that gets bored of a toy quickly, and the parents get him a nother toy...then another, then another. Pretty soon he'll have a whole stack of toys STILL complaining that he's bored and the mother says, "go play with your toys", "I don't like those anymore!"
They are constantly chasing that fix.
I am of the upbringing, "You gotta make due with what you have". and "Builds character". There's just something about people that bore easily that I don't associate with them too intimately. I don't see it "finding a dazzling new lover" simply because your bored as a positive whatsoever.
I never desired the white picket fence, but I did want to be loved. I wanted to be cared about. I was not able to have casual sex without getting attached. I tried (many times lol). It is very painful to have sex with someone when you are emotionally attached and they do not return the feelings.
Well everyone is an individual and makes their own individual decisions, a biological programming is different between men and women. Women were programmed to have one mate, and when we have sex with a man bonding chemicals are released by our bodies. This is fact. This is not how men were designed biologically as they were designed to spread their seed far and wide.
I reject this bolded. I think it is convenient to wrap ones mind around their feelings as biological imperative. Too much evidence shows my this just aint so. It is also a fact that that same chemical is released for men. And that much more is involved in the human experience that is explained biochemically.
I never desired the white picket fence, but I did want to be loved. I wanted to be cared about. I was not able to have casual sex without getting attached. I tried (many times lol). It is very painful to have sex with someone when you are emotionally attached and they do not return the feelings.
Well everyone is an individual and makes their own individual decisions, a biological programming is different between men and women. Women were programmed to have one mate, and when we have sex with a man bonding chemicals are released by our bodies. This is fact. This is not how men were designed biologically as they were designed to spread their seed far and wide.
Again individual certainly can exercise conscious choice, but we cannot prevent those chemicals from being released and affecting how we feel.
The old evo-bio, "men were programmed to spread their seed; women were programmed to have one mate" thing has been largely debunked by many anthropological and sociological studies as being far too simplistic to fully encompass human reproductive strategy.
And in fact I hold to the observed reality that if it's more accurate to describe our NATURE as our "wiring" and our NURTURE as our "programming" then the programming will overpower the wiring in a majority of cases. So what we grew up seeing and learning from the people close to us as children for instance, will have a far greater effect on how we behave throughout our lives, than the basic idea that it is advantageous from a reproductive strategy standpoint, to do this or that.
These theories might look good on paper, and be backed up by some cases just enough to sate a person's need for some confirmation bias, but they are so far from universal that considering them any kind of a "rule" just...it doesn't work. Far too many cases exist outside of the pattern.
I know plenty of young men who have no desire to sow their seed far and wide, both of my sons in fact really want meaningful and committed relationships, even at ages 17 and 20. I have argued at both of them, why get so serious right now? You're only young! Live a little! But their hearts want what their hearts want.
Though I must say that with a majority of women that I know who are deliberately engaging in casual connections and who are not wanting a committed relationship, the idea behind it seems to be more a matter of defending their space, autonomy, and personal goals, while still trying to get sexual, emotional and social needs met.
I am of the upbringing, "You gotta make due with what you have". and "Builds character". There's just something about people that bore easily that I don't associate with them too intimately. I don't see it "finding a dazzling new lover" simply because your bored as a positive whatsoever.
I don't find it an either or proposition, but I sure do find the bolded sad AF. You have one life to live and you have the power to influence how your life goes. And just making due with what you have as the primary operator is awful to me. Constant seeking where nothing is valuable is the polar opposite of this and likewise awful. Balance ma dude.
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