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Really? Took me about one minute to dig these up on a single search.
Without question there is a subset of influential women who believe that staying home with your kids is somehow bad for the women's movement writ large.
I think it's a very small minority, but the sentiment is definitely out there.
"When women chose to stay home full-time, abandon career and earning, in the name of better mothering, life balance, or commitment to family, we all lose, most especially women" https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-s...%20the%20world.
“Only when the tiresome and completely unfounded claim that ‘feminism is about choice’ is dead and buried (it’s not about choice, it’s about equality) will we consign restrictive gender stereotypes to history,” https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/...gal-australia/
"I was at a dinner party recently where a woman accused me of being anti-feminist. When I asked why, she told me that criticizing daycare and advocating for women to stay with their children as long as possible before they turn 3, which I do in my new book, was anti-feminist." https://time.com/4735089/stay-home-w...anti-feminist/
But are those quotes from recent years? or have you talked to many other women who work? I’ve been working from home from the last five years and I hear babies crying in the background, women taking a break to meet the school bus ….”be right back” to get the door or let the dog out- whether it’s my coworkers or women I’m talking to while they’re also at work. I haven’t had to talk to many (or any) men with screaming kids in the background though.
No, not everyone can work from home, but there’s definitely not a prevalent “us vs them” “feminist or not” mentality. We are them. I stayed home 20 years ago, the women I knew were more envious than critical. I wouldn’t now, and don’t have to choose between the 2.
I don't hear any women putting down other women (who are strangers, or a hypothetical woman in a conversation) for wanting to stay home and raise their children. Not even the most vocal feminists I know. That might have been a thing 50 or more years ago, but I just never hear it now...and most of my circles are pretty progressive, so if anyone was going to hear it, I would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Red Road
Really? Took me about one minute to dig these up on a single search.
Without question there is a subset of influential women who believe that staying home with your kids is somehow bad for the women's movement writ large.
I think it's a very small minority, but the sentiment is definitely out there.
"When women chose to stay home full-time, abandon career and earning, in the name of better mothering, life balance, or commitment to family, we all lose, most especially women" https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-s...%20the%20world.
“Only when the tiresome and completely unfounded claim that ‘feminism is about choice’ is dead and buried (it’s not about choice, it’s about equality) will we consign restrictive gender stereotypes to history,” https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/...gal-australia/
"I was at a dinner party recently where a woman accused me of being anti-feminist. When I asked why, she told me that criticizing daycare and advocating for women to stay with their children as long as possible before they turn 3, which I do in my new book, was anti-feminist." https://time.com/4735089/stay-home-w...anti-feminist/
There has always been a subset of feminist scolds that get a lot of attention online, but in school and in just real life, I really can't say that I encountered them. So I agree with Sonic here, feminists aren't really the problem.
I think the more thoughtful criticisms of feminism/gender studies is that feminism has been too successful. Women are outpacing men in college and grad school. If you look at who is getting in trouble with drugs and alcohol and who then ends up homeless, it's mostly men. Men are struggling right now, real male incomes are have been flat or decreasing my entire life.
But the gender studies community doesn't really talk about this stuff at all nor have anything useful to add to this discussion. I think this is why so many guys are struggling with dating and turning to online personality cults like the redpill because at least there they feel like their concerns can be heard. The problem is that the red pill advice is truly awful but if the gender studies group was not ignoring men and their problems could the gender studies group offer better advice?
Right now the gender gap in universities is more favorable to women than it was to men during the 70's when their was this big title 9 push to get more women into universities. But now that men are struggling there is no pressure to do anything about that. Why not?
In the air force there is this big pressure to get more women to be fighter pilots, but there are more women who are Kindergarten teachers than men who are fighter pilots and their is no pressure to get more guys into teaching young kids. I am not opposed to women becoming fighter pilots but I do think in the professions that are overwhelmingly female we probably should have some sort of affirmative action program to recruit more men into these professions too.
But the reason more women aren't having more kids nor staying home with their kids isn't feminism. I think the much bigger problem is economics and that guys are struggling. If fewer guys were on drugs and more guys could find jobs that could support families, there world be more families formed.
But are those quotes from recent years? or have you talked to many other women who work? I’ve been working from home from the last five years and I hear babies crying in the background, women taking a break to meet the school bus ….”be right back” to get the door or let the dog out- whether it’s my coworkers or women I’m talking to while they’re also at work. I haven’t had to talk to many (or any) men with screaming kids in the background though.
No, not everyone can work from home, but there’s definitely not a prevalent “us vs them” “feminist or not” mentality. We are them. I stayed home 20 years ago, the women I knew were more envious than critical. I wouldn’t now, and don’t have to choose between the 2.
I'm going to spill the beans to women here.....men DO have very high standards: We expect our prospective mates to be A-female, and B-breathing.
At 2AM in the bar, one of those may be negotiable.
When it comes to sex, I agree a lot of men's standards are fogging a mirror but when it comes to marriage and sharing your assets I would argue men are as discriminating as women in this domain.
But the reason more women aren't having more kids nor staying home with their kids isn't feminism. I think the much bigger problem is economics and that guys are struggling. If fewer guys were on drugs and more guys could find jobs that could support families, there world be more families formed.
Great points. Even with the above picture though, women are finding ways to stay home and be there for their children if left to their own devices, whether or not by choice.
Perhaps which "modern" version isn't liked by some men is the one that can finish college from home and then work from home and better accomplish financial and parental support for their children. The real traditional version didn't have many options, or plans while living in that bubble.
Only a secure man wants a woman who is married with children because she wants to be, not because she has no other choices.
If my life had gone somewhat according to plan, I'd have liked my married and life and motherhood to have been similar to that of my own parents. That is, my own mother was both a traditional and a modern wife and mother; she and her family greatly benefitted from this. Financially, her working allowed my parents to pay off their house early, to have a solid retirement, and to put all three of their children though college. Her staying at home with us when we were small had numerous advantages that have paid dividends that have continued well into our adulthood.
College-educated, she worked up until about a month before she had her first child, stayed home with us until the youngest was in full-time, then returned to work. She did most of the cooking and general housekeeping; dad did most of the home/auto/yard/garden maintenance. She managed the household finances while dad took care of the investments.
To be fair, Dad had a very active hand in raising us and would and could do all of the things that mom did, but that was the general pattern of their division of household labor. Both Dad and Mom had smart, strong-minded mothers and Dad's mom had always worked outside of the home, so I think that that strongly influenced how they managed the nuts and bolts of their own marriage. When Dad was without work for several years, Mom's income kept things running on the financial front while Dad kept things on an even keel at home (even though he didn't always do things the way that she'd have preferred, lol). Had she not been educated and back in the workforce when he lost his position, things would have been much more stressful for the family than they were at that time.
While I love being in the workplace, I also greatly enjoy making a home (and can do all of the things that my Dad did, too, because he and mom made sure that both the boy and the girls in our family could fully run a household on their own--finances and all). Now if a man *expected/s* me to be a homemaker simply because I am a woman? That's a horse of a different color and wouldn't fly with me.
While my life took a different path than I had planned on when I was younger, I still consider myself to be a somewhat traditional woman with modern touches here and there. I do love to do things to care for and please the man in my life, but on the balance, he loves to do things and care for me in return.
To Gen-X me who was influenced by more than a few second-wave feminists and women of the Silent and Greatest Generations who knew how to get things done either with a man or without, I feel that the feminist/strong woman messages have become somewhat warped over the years. Feminism was about women being able to have the full range of privileges and options that were previously only available to me, about not being put into a box simply due to one's gender--not about belittling and demeaning men and masculinity as that hurts both men, women, and society in general.
Last edited by Formerly Known As Twenty; 10-08-2023 at 12:22 PM..
I got into a couple of interesting discussions today with women and we're starting to wonder what men these days are REALLY looking for. If you had the choice, which would you marry?
1) "Traditional" Woman: Has your children, stays at home to take care of them, cooks well, keeps the house very clean, wears very feminine clothing and keeps herself made up/hair done, etc, has sex whenever the husband wants, does more listening than talking, keeps her opinions to herself.
2) "Modern" Woman: Has a full-time job, earns approximately half of the household income, if she has kids she goes back to work by the time each child is 2-3 years old, cooks and cleans but expects her husband to do half of the work, is fashionable but usually wears jeans as opposed to dresses, likes sex but she needs her needs met in bed, is very aware of the economy, politics, the world, etc. and always states her mind.
Men--please choose which one you would marry and also mention your age and any other background about yourself.
Oh, to get back to this ancient original post: What a bunch of pigeon-holing nonsense this is!
Even the "traditional women" who I know are a combination of both numbers one and two. Most of the trad-wives who I know and are friends with are farmers' wives, which means that even if they don't have jobs off of the farm (and many of them do), they are full partners with their husbands. They wear jeans (sometimes even to church), are very aware of politics, the world, and the economy as all three directly affect their lives and livelihood, and most certainly do not keep their opinions to themselves.
But the reason more women aren't having more kids nor staying home with their kids isn't feminism. I think the much bigger problem is economics and that guys are struggling. .
You missed my point, or at least read way too much into it.
I never suggested that overly zealous feminists ever actually kept people from staying home with their kids, only that they were an unnecessary annoyance.
If a couple is going through the difficult decision process of giving up an income in order to give better care to their kids, the last thing they need to hear is that they're letting down women. Like I wrote before, it's unfortunate.
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