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I am with ILikeSmartHippies on this one. I've made the same observation myself for years. I'm a dancer too.
Hold your horses ladies. Please read. We probably have a different understanding about what the word "submission" means to us. It does NOT mean that the woman is there for the benefit of the man. It's PRECISELY the OPPOSITE!
The fact is that "submission" is possible in an equal relationship provided the leader does his job. The leader's task is not to tell the follower what to do. The leader's job is to put the follower first. So this goes right back to what ILikeSmartHippies said:
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Originally Posted by ILikeSmartHippies
submissive usually means, the woman feels safe, protected, able to follow the man's lead, confident in his decision making ability enough to let go and be free to follow him, like a good dance, except you're dancing through life, and everything flows as if it were meant to be.
I would personally have said that submissive REQUIRES that the woman feel safe, protected, able to follow the man's lead, etc.
I understand a lot of women react negatively to this idea because they don't have a lot of history with men who know how to lead FOR the benefit of the follower. If the leader does not do his job, then he makes the follower into a slave, and that is precisely what made the feminist movement take root. The men weren't doing their jobs right. So women rebelled. Now the pendulum has swung the other way. Men are the slaves.
The thing is that women EXPECT to be taken care of by their man. Being cared for and being the leader are on opposite sides of the coin. If you expect to be taken care of, and you expect to make all of the decisions, then it doesn't leave any privilege for the other person. They have to submit to you, and they have to care for you. That makes them your slave. So dominant ladies... are your men your slaves??? They are if you expect them to care for you and you expect them to defer to you in competing decisions.
And about the idea of the two being equal... this is a pipe dream. Yes, they have equal value, but they are still different. One is a lump of gold worth a million dollars and the other is a diamond necklace worth a million dollars. But the idea that every decision will be equal is not possible. Sure, in many cases the two will collaborate and come to an agreement. With big decisions like moving and changing jobs, it's expected that both will talk things out. But there are many cases where one person must decide for the other, and in all relationships there is going to be a "default leader" and a "default follower."
"My husband and I are partners, and we take turns leading at what we do best." Yes, that's more what I'm talking about. Most women I think prefer something on the order of 80/20 mix though, not 50/50.
Actually it's supposed to be 100/100. BOTH give 100% to the other person. That's how you ensure that you have true equality.
In a dance, like in a relationship, the man makes a guiding move while simultaneously reading his woman for her acceptance. If she accepts, she follows him, if she doesn't accept, he makes another guiding move. If she continually doesn't accept, because she's stubborn or clueless or stuck in her head, a whole lot of men will start to give up and stop guiding, and finally the woman, who still wants to dance, starts leading herself, and at that point the woman is leading the man, which is wrong, unless the dance specifically calls for it. A stronger man will make a stronger guiding move. A good dance instructor will tell a man, "When you take a new partner, you want to make a strong move, so that she knows you are a good lead.
Meh.*
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Then she will feel more comfortable to follow you." It's the same in relationships. Strong men are hard to find, because they are so often beat down by everyone, so they stop guiding for even small things, and then both the men and the women end up unhappy. One of the main goals of dance, and a relationship, is to get people out of their heads, and into their hearts where they can flow with the movement in the moment.
Heh. So true. So very true. Take it from the dancers people. We know.
Everyone should learn a partner dance at least to the intermediate level. It WILL teach you about your relationship with the opposite sex.
*Strong leads are not necessarily good leads. Good leads are clear. Great leads have good timing. Awesome leads back off the lead after it's clear that the follower has accepted the request. This gives the girl freedom. Life is a lot like that. You don't want to micro-manage your follower, not in dance, and certainly not in life. If you want communicate to your dance follower that you know how to lead, then you begin with a good frame, confidence and clarity in your movement. Once she realizes that you know what you are doing, she will be more likely to follow. And this doesn't require you to overpower her with your strength.
In a good relationship I know that everything I said before is 100% spot on. In a good relationship women want (want, want) the men to be the dominant one so they can be the submissive one. How dominant depends on the woman, the ratio depends on the women. Very few women are happy with driving or even with 50/50. They would rather laugh with their girlfriends about "how well they are taken care of".
Absolutely right. Isn't one of the most desired traits in a man a "take charge" attitude? If the man makes his woman feel that everything he does is for her benefit, then she will gladly take the back seat and let him wear the pants.
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There's millions of examples of how this plays out in real life. Who's the one to walk up to meet first; the man, he walks up to the woman to start with. Who's the one to call on the phone; the man, most women insist they don't like calling guys and it's not their role. Who's the one who pays for the entertainment/dinner/coffee most of the time; the man, most women insist their role is to be entertained and courted. Who's the one to request who's hand in marriage; the man, he asks the woman, it's gotta be over 99% of women who cringe at the idea of asking a man to marry her. Who's the one who (in a good relationship, ok?) decides where to go out, when to go out, and how to go out; the man, using a lot of clues from the woman, he makes the plan and sets the plan and guides along the way, and most women insist that it's the man's role. Who's the one who plans the vacations in a relationship (in a good relationship, ok?), where to go and how to get there; the man, and nearly all women are very satisfied to let him do all the planning himself while giving their input or suggestion. Who's the one driving the car when the two of you are out going anywhere; the man, he's nearly always driving
Absafrikkinlutely! Man, are you like my twin or something? I say the same things! I even use it to teach men how to lead in dance. Isn't it amazing to see a beginner leader almost ask a woman in his attitude on the dance floor if it's okay if she will do a turn? Then within a month or two the men begin to get it. I love teaching this to men. They start to take ownership of their leadership and they stop asking the woman if it's okay that they lead. They become more confident and develop that take charge attitude that women desire so much. And then it starts to seep into their real lives. Man I love that.
What are women supposed to do with a Man that has no idea how to be a man? What does being a man really mean? Their can be a lot of different answers to that question though.
This is the new man. You ladies have made him. So now go out there and enjoy yourselves.
This is the new man. You ladies have made him. So now go out there and enjoy yourselves.
So much for personal responsibility, eh?
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