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Standard set of physical requirements for firefighters of both genders.
Feminism:
Higher physical standard for men, lower requirements for women.
I am curious, which do you prefer?
As a prospective firefighter?
As someone who might one day be trapped in a burning building with a long staircase the firefighters have to run up to get to you and a heavy door that has to be knocked down?
Given that I live in one of the most bushfire prone countries in the world I'm not fussed if firefighters are male or female. Frankly I think that every man, woman and child in this country needs to be able to fight fire.
The first female firefighters in the MFB were inducted in September 1988.
As of 2007 there were only 46 female firefighters in the MFB who were desperately recruiting people from a wide variety of age groups, backgrounds AND both genders.
There are over 58,000 CFA volunteers from many walks of life including the self employed, mothers at home, students, shift workers, retirees, people looking for work and professionals.
35,263 trained volunteer firefighters
23,020 involved in non firefighting roles
Of this...
4,400 are female fire fighters & incident management roles
6,700 are women in a range of non operational roles
Note that first bit about the Armidale Amazons? Bet nobody was complaining if they turned up to put out the fire, they'd just be glad to see them.
Oh and if I happen to be trapped in a burning building with a long staircase and a heavy door that needs to be knocked down I won't be checking to see who is a girl and who is a guy. Whomever has qualified as a firefighter that is prepared to come is fine by me not that I'd tell someone who wasn't a qualified firefighter male or female who happened along to help to go away and come back when they'd either qualified or grown a pair.
Oh and this is exactly WHY I've avoided this thread because conversations like this bring out the worst in people.
Last edited by moonshadow; 11-06-2009 at 04:05 AM..
Given that I live in one of the most bushfire prone countries in the world I'm not fussed if firefighters are male or female. Frankly I think that every man, woman and child in this country needs to be able to fight fire.
The first female firefighters in the MFB were inducted in September 1988.
As of 2007 there were only 46 female firefighters in the MFB who were desperately recruiting people from a wide variety of age groups, backgrounds AND both genders.
There are over 58,000 CFA volunteers from many walks of life including the self employed, mothers at home, students, shift workers, retirees, people looking for work and professionals.
35,263 trained volunteer firefighters
23,020 involved in non firefighting roles
Of this...
4,400 are female fire fighters & incident management roles
6,700 are women in a range of non operational roles
3,400 are junior volunteers (11-15 years)
5,600 are young adults (18-25 years)
Joining CFA - Country Fire Authority (http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/joining/index.htm - broken link)
Here's a little timeline regarding women fire fighters in this country.
Note that first bit about the Armidale Amazons? Bet nobody was complaining if they turned up to put out the fire, they'd just be glad to see them.
Oh and if I happen to be trapped in a burning building with a long staircase and a heavy door that needs to be knocked down I won't be checking to see who is a girl and who is a guy. Whomever has qualified as a firefighter that is prepared to come is fine by me not that I'd tell someone who wasn't a qualified firefighter male or female who happened along to help to go away and come back when they'd either qualified or grown a pair.
Oh and this is exactly WHY I've avoided this thread because conversations like this bring out the worst in people.
Hi moonshadow,
And this is what burns up the whole nonsense. I believe the point about firemen was it was used as an example of where physical strength and endurance matter. I don't want some flabby couch potato working for the coast guard either. You completely abuse the context because of the ambiguity introduced by an understandable brevity.
3,400 are junior volunteers (11-15 years)
The contributions of an 11 year old are going to differ and in many cases be found lacking from any adult. Now the standard operating procedure of the "Human Flat Earth Society" is to find that one 11 year old. Thus it exposes the nature of the issue. We will take what we can get.
Of course when one of my girl friends kept talking about what a fast swimmer she was and how she beat a guy on our high school swim team, I just let her say it. Sooner or later we ended up in a pool and I went the length underwater popped up and went to the other side before she could even hit the first lap. That was the end of that. Compete with me like a man and lose. Of course on the internet many people can tell me what fast swimmers they are. Of course the East German swim team figured out how to win. Take male hormones.
Given that I live in one of the most bushfire prone countries in the world I'm not fussed if firefighters are male or female. Frankly I think that every man, woman and child in this country needs to be able to fight fire.
The first female firefighters in the MFB were inducted in September 1988.
As of 2007 there were only 46 female firefighters in the MFB who were desperately recruiting people from a wide variety of age groups, backgrounds AND both genders.
There are over 58,000 CFA volunteers from many walks of life including the self employed, mothers at home, students, shift workers, retirees, people looking for work and professionals.
35,263 trained volunteer firefighters
23,020 involved in non firefighting roles
Of this...
4,400 are female fire fighters & incident management roles
6,700 are women in a range of non operational roles
3,400 are junior volunteers (11-15 years)
5,600 are young adults (18-25 years)
Joining CFA - Country Fire Authority (http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/joining/index.htm - broken link)
Here's a little timeline regarding women fire fighters in this country.
Note that first bit about the Armidale Amazons? Bet nobody was complaining if they turned up to put out the fire, they'd just be glad to see them.
Oh and if I happen to be trapped in a burning building with a long staircase and a heavy door that needs to be knocked down I won't be checking to see who is a girl and who is a guy. Whomever has qualified as a firefighter that is prepared to come is fine by me not that I'd tell someone who wasn't a qualified firefighter male or female who happened along to help to go away and come back when they'd either qualified or grown a pair.
Oh and this is exactly WHY I've avoided this thread because conversations like this bring out the worst in people.
Ahh so I'm the worst of people now?
My post was about equal standards for men and women. Instead you sidestepped that and tried saying that I was saying women shouldn't be FF's. I have no problem with women FF's.....so long as they meet the same standards and qualifications as the men FF's do.
And this is what burns up the whole nonsense. I believe the point about firemen was it was used as an example of where physical strength and endurance matter. I don't want some flabby couch potato working for the coast guard either. You completely abuse the context because of the ambiguity introduced by an understandable brevity.
No worries, I'm dealing in reality and HERE bushfire is a REALITY.
Also in reality physical strength and endurance are not the only qualities that matter when fighting fire, (least not here) something the governing bodies of the firefighting services have taken into consideration.
So by all means you should advise your firefighting (and coast guard services) you have your own set of requirements with regard to who you will accept help from in an emergency. I do not and am perfectly happy with the training and efforts of our firefighters, both men and women (and children) who have qualified as per the requirements and standards set here.
Bearing in mind also that FIRE itself doesn't care about the physical strength and endurance or the gender or age of the firefighter.
Had you read any of the links I provided you will see that of the people who died in our recent bushfires there were also included in the numbers qualified firemen who had met physical strength and endurance requirements, whilst women and children and old men and the not so strong and fit, and even UNQUALIFIED, survived. You might descriminate, fire does not. It doesn't care. It will take what it wants indescriminately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
3,400 are junior volunteers (11-15 years)
The contributions of an 11 year old are going to differ and in many cases be found lacking from any adult. Now the standard operating procedure of the "Human Flat Earth Society" is to find that one 11 year old. Thus it exposes the nature of the issue. We will take what we can get.
You might find the efforts of an 11 year old lacking if your benchmark for being a successful firefighter is strength and endurance. There were many children (not even firefighters but citizens) who fought along side their families in the recent fires. Some of them died. If you find their efforts lacking I find that offensive.
Back to reality again we do not live in a country where it is prudent for ANYONE who is able bodied to sit back and say, "I cannot fight because I don't match strength and endurance benchmarks set by those who believe firefighting is a man only domain". Most people here recognize that fire affects us ALL and to that end everyone is encouraged to learn and have a plan.
You're right, we will take what we can get when there's a bushfire because anybody sitting around crying in their cornflakes that they don't fit requirements is a burden, just as are those with a false sense of security that their strength and endurance will save them. Had you read the article I posted you'd know that the MFB is also changing its requirements and conducting a recruitment drive for a wide variety of candidates simply because it now has an ageing fighting force who might not even qualify under the previous requirements. So it's down to a choice. An arbitrary set of requirements that can only be filled by a select group who are NOT applying and qualifying for whatever reason OR accepting that we need firefighters and that many different people of differing abilities, ages and genders can and do have a contribution to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1
Of course when one of my girl friends kept talking about what a fast swimmer she was and how she beat a guy on our high school swim team, I just let her say it. Sooner or later we ended up in a pool and I went the length underwater popped up and went to the other side before she could even hit the first lap. That was the end of that. Compete with me like a man and lose. Of course on the internet many people can tell me what fast swimmers they are. Of course the East German swim team figured out how to win. Take male hormones.
That's great, I'm happy for you. You clearly are a superior human being. It must have made you feel so special to prove your manliness in such a way. I am more than certain that your girlfriend has been suitably put in her place.
My post was about equal standards for men and women. Instead you sidestepped that and tried saying that I was saying women shouldn't be FF's. I have no problem with women FF's.....so long as they meet the same standards and qualifications as the men FF's do.
Are equal standards so much to ask for?
Read back over my last sentence again please.
I did not say YOU ARE THE WORST OF PEOPLE. I said conversations like this one bring out the worst IN people.
I didn't side step. I provided you with a good deal of information that indicates women here are clearly meeting the requirements set by our firefighting governing bodies.
I'll also add that I find it ludicrous that women should have to qualify ANYWHERE as a firefighter to a physical standard set for men, by men that drags the whole issue down to who can pull a 200 lb man from a building and who break down a solid door. That's great if that's what you're dealing with but to my way of thinking we're not demanding that male firefighters meet stringent strength and endurance criteria whilst also expecting them to be small enough to crawl into tight spaces to rescue people or be light enough to go into dangerous situations where being heavier would be an issue. In terms of fire there are many different attributes that are needed AND many different skills and strengths can only improve the situation. There will be men who cannot fulfil the strength and endurance requirements, doesn't make them better or worse firefighters, just different. Diversity is what is needed, and smarts and a wide variety of skills.
Fire captain can send Brutus when doors need to be broken down and 200lb men need to be dragged to safety AND they can send PocketRocket when they need someone smaller to crawl in and rescue the infant trapped in a tight space.
So I'm saying strength and endurance is relative to the job at hand and the person there doing the job. MALE OR FEMALE. A smart firefighting service knows this.
I did not say YOU ARE THE WORST OF PEOPLE. I said conversations like this one bring out the worst IN people.
I didn't side step. I provided you with a good deal of information that indicates women here are clearly meeting the requirements set by our firefighting governing bodies.
I'll also add that I find it ludicrous that women should have to qualify ANYWHERE as a firefighter to a physical standard set for men, by men that drags the whole issue down to who can pull a 200 lb man from a building and who break down a solid door. That's great if that's what you're dealing with but to my way of thinking we're not demanding that male firefighters meet stringent strength and endurance criteria whilst also expecting them to be small enough to crawl into tight spaces to rescue people or be light enough to go into dangerous situations where being heavier would be an issue. In terms of fire there are many different attributes that are needed AND many different skills and strengths can only improve the situation. There will be men who cannot fulfil the strength and endurance requirements, doesn't make them better or worse firefighters, just different. Diversity is what is needed, and smarts and a wide variety of skills.
Fire captain can send Brutus when doors need to be broken down and 200lb men need to be dragged to safety AND they can send PocketRocket when they need someone smaller to crawl in and rescue the infant trapped in a tight space.
So I'm saying strength and endurance is relative to the job at hand and the person there doing the job. MALE OR FEMALE. A smart firefighting service knows this.
1. Men who fail to meet the strength/endurance requirements are canned. They are not allowed to continue as firefighters, they're fired if they fail those tests.
2. Women are not subjected to any test regarding stature as per your example. If they were, then maybe I could see your point. As it is fat women who certainly do not have the stature you are trying to point at could get by on the lower PT standards. Hence, no advantage for a "pocket rocket" as you called them.
3. The push ups I can see MAYBE giving a break for women. But sit ups and running? Come on...there is something wrong when a man and woman can run the same time and a man is given a failing score and the woman passes with flying colors. Qualifying for the same job.
4. If women were held to a higher standard on some other part of the hiring process, than maybe I could see the disparate PT standards being kept as they are. But as it is now men are being held to a higher standard and higher qualifications for the exact same job. Which is NOT equality as feminism is supposedly about.
An individual woman can either compete on a level playing field with the male applicants, or they don't belong in the job. If she needs lower standards or a "special" advantage to get in, then she needs to find another career.
I am a feminist and I agree that men are unfairly treated in too many ways (although I don't think feminism can be blamed for that at all, it's more the eternal gender stereotypes that play both men and women down). I've never understood why they should endure extra pressure to earn more and more money, be more and more masculine (in a very narrow sense of the word that doesn't allow them to be just human) and be the one who basically makes the most important decisions and if he's right, it's only natural but when he's wrong, or finds himself without a job, or fails to fix a car, he's useless and a lesser man.
The point of Braunwyn's question was more why are independent women thought of as b*tches, but independence in men is to be respected?
I don't think too many independent women are referred to like that. That was one poster who did that.
Independnet women are usually appluded for it. It is expected of men and anything less is failure. Take a look at the thread about househusbands for proof.
1. Men who fail to meet the strength/endurance requirements are canned. They are not allowed to continue as firefighters, they're fired if they fail those tests.
2. Women are not subjected to any test regarding stature as per your example. If they were, then maybe I could see your point. As it is fat women who certainly do not have the stature you are trying to point at could get by on the lower PT standards. Hence, no advantage for a "pocket rocket" as you called them.
3. The push ups I can see MAYBE giving a break for women. But sit ups and running? Come on...there is something wrong when a man and woman can run the same time and a man is given a failing score and the woman passes with flying colors. Qualifying for the same job.
4. If women were held to a higher standard on some other part of the hiring process, than maybe I could see the disparate PT standards being kept as they are. But as it is now men are being held to a higher standard and higher qualifications for the exact same job. Which is NOT equality as feminism is supposedly about.
An individual woman can either compete on a level playing field with the male applicants, or they don't belong in the job. If she needs lower standards or a "special" advantage to get in, then she needs to find another career.
I am now and have all along been discussing firefighting as it pertains here in Australia and as far as I am aware the criteria for entry is the same regardless of gender in both the MFB and the CFA.
Also as far as I am aware the circumstances that you are discussing do not relate to firefighting here.
Interestingly after spending far too much time reading both the CFA and MFB websites today and other associated information on the internet it I came across this
Volunteering - Country Fire Authority (http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/joining/volunteering/index.htm - broken link)
Fitness & Challenge - Country Fire Authority (http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/joining/career_ff/fitness_and_challenge.htm - broken link)
I've also included what I could find on the criteria for entry to both the MFB and the CFA and I can only say again that in the advent of fire here I am not going to be requesting anyone drop and give me twenty or send away a firefighter who is old, fat, female, small, or any other "affliction" that doesn't seem to fit other people's criteria.
That's great if that's what you're dealing with but to my way of thinking we're not demanding that male firefighters meet stringent strength and endurance criteria whilst also expecting them to be small enough to crawl into tight spaces to rescue people or be light enough to go into dangerous situations where being heavier would be an issue. In terms of fire there are many different attributes that are needed AND many different skills and strengths can only improve the situation.
This is a great point. Huh, you actually changed someone's mind on the internet. Normally, I wouldn't agree that women should be allowed to take on roles if they cannot meet the same requirements as their male counter parts (fire fighters, police, infantry, etc) . But, in reality, all situations are not the same and to approach them as if they are could potentially be harmful.
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It must have made you feel so special to prove your manliness in such a way. I am more than certain that your girlfriend has been suitably put in her place. 
