Question for Guys - Rape (husbands, kissing, separated, college)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Bobman: I apologize if I did not make it clear, but what I said is based entirely on my personal feelings about this matter. I am not saying anyone else should be doing what I would do. This is a highly personal and very complex problem.
That said, I feel that sharing something like that is a double-edged sword. It can help you cope with the problem, or it can exacerbate it in a major way. I have an aversion to submitting myself to another person's judgment, and that's what would inform my choices in this. I wouldn't want to discuss the rape, just like I wouldn't want to "accept" that it's somehow "part of me", and I don't care what any therapist says. It would be much easier for me to get past if I treated it as something some bastard did to me, but it's not a part of who I am. But that, again, is personal.
Rape is a very personal thing, therefore how one deals with the after effects also has to be personal.
Amongst all the weirdo's on this thread, there are some gems of information from some posters which will hopefully help anyone who's reading, and struggling with the consequences.
I'd be lying if I said it didn't affect us a little at first, she had some understandable intimacy issues, but things are good now. she saw it as benefit because if she relapses, or if fresh issues raise their head in the future, then she'll be able to discuss openly with me why she may have acted in a certain way, or whatever the problem is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca
Bobman: I apologize if I did not make it clear, but what I said is based entirely on my personal feelings about this matter. I am not saying anyone else should be doing what I would do. This is a highly personal and very complex problem.
That said, I feel that sharing something like that is a double-edged sword. It can help you cope with the problem, or it can exacerbate it in a major way. I have an aversion to submitting myself to another person's judgment, and that's what would inform my choices in this. I wouldn't want to discuss the rape, just like I wouldn't want to "accept" that it's somehow "part of me", and I don't care what any therapist says. It would be much easier for me to get past if I treated it as something some bastard did to me, but it's not a part of who I am. But that, again, is personal.
It's not based on any conviction that the story won't be believed -- but the risk that it won't be believed, alone, would be enough for me to keep it to myself. As the past few pages have demonstrated, people have a lot of preconceived notions about how rape victims should behave, even years after the event. The uncertainty over what this or that person expects from a rape victim only exacerbates this problem. Must the rape victim be depressed from time to time? Must she be afraid of men? Must she visibly suffer flashbacks? Must she have sexual hangups or inhibitions? Must she be sad? Must she dress like a nun? Must she demonstratively resent her own body? Must she act vulnerable and cling to her husband for protection in situations where most people would be able to manage on their own? I am not saying that those are the criteria you use in evaluating whether the purported victim is telling the truth -- but those are just some of the things which would go through my mind if I knew my SO would doubt me if I didn't show certain "signs" of having been raped or didn't demonstrate sufficient severity of the experience in order for it to be the right "degree" of rape. Identifying yourself as a rape victim boxes you in, and having to appear "victimly" in order to avoid coming under suspicion of being a liar is one of those things that actually perpetuate the trauma of rape. The most obvious way to avoid the aggravation is to just not open that can of worms.
And what would be the purpose of telling one's husband about it, anyway? To inspire his sympathy? Screw that. As I've indicated above, the costs of being a victim far outweigh any benefits.
Those are very good points, one and all, with regard to telling a spouse or SO about it. And as I said, it's still a matter of choice; my only point of contention was that you came across as suggesting conviction of disbelief rather than risk -- but you explained that, so it's a null point.
I'd address the "degrees" remark but I've learned it's NOT worth it in this forum, not ever.
I think I see where you're coming from with the "degrees" thing, I won't ask you to explain on here, and I won't offer any opinions either.
Actually, I was surprised to find my g/f sharing some of the same opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
Those are very good points, one and all, with regard to telling a spouse or SO about it. And as I said, it's still a matter of choice; my only point of contention was that you came across as suggesting conviction of disbelief rather than risk -- but you explained that, so it's a null point.
I'd address the "degrees" remark but I've learned it's NOT worth it in this forum, not ever.
Well, the thing about degrees is that everyone has different ideas about them. Obviously, being raped by a dozen people is worse than being raped by 1 person; being alert and awake during it is worse than being unconscious; being raped AND getting beaten to a pulp, or stabbed, or shot is worse than just being raped (although a head injury that results in memory loss may be a blessing in disguise). But, whereas in reality, degrees of rape is sort of like degrees of cancer, for a lot of people, the idea eventually wanders into the territory of victim-blaming and questioning whether she suffered enough for it to be called rape -- or whether she engaged in conduct that somehow cancels out the lack of consent. This (http://wonkette.com/politics/bill-napoli/bill-napoli-is-all-twisted-up-and-dead-inside-160381.php - broken link) is obviously an extreme example of such an attitude, and to some extent, so is this; but I think they both illustrate what I'm talking about.
It's not based on any conviction that the story won't be believed -- but the risk that it won't be believed, alone, would be enough for me to keep it to myself. As the past few pages have demonstrated, people have a lot of preconceived notions about how rape victims should behave, even years after the event. The uncertainty over what this or that person expects from a rape victim only exacerbates this problem. Must the rape victim be depressed from time to time? Must she be afraid of men? Must she visibly suffer flashbacks? Must she have sexual hangups or inhibitions? Must she be sad? Must she dress like a nun? Must she demonstratively resent her own body? Must she act vulnerable and cling to her husband for protection in situations where most people would be able to manage on their own? I am not saying that those are the criteria you use in evaluating whether the purported victim is telling the truth -- but those are just some of the things which would go through my mind if I knew my SO would doubt me if I didn't show certain "signs" of having been raped or didn't demonstrate sufficient severity of the experience in order for it to be the right "degree" of rape. Identifying yourself as a rape victim boxes you in, and having to appear "victimly" in order to avoid coming under suspicion of being a liar is one of those things that actually perpetuate the trauma of rape. The most obvious way to avoid the aggravation is to just not open that can of worms.
And what would be the purpose of telling one's husband about it, anyway? To inspire his sympathy? Screw that. As I've indicated above, the costs of being a victim far outweigh any benefits.
Hmm...
It is evident from your writing that you are a highly intelligent person, Redisca. But this post and your most recent one are saying more than what you might intend to reveal.
If you have suffered a incident of abuse of whatever type (and I am not saying you have) in your life, I hope that you have sought treatment. Because your statements seem too strident about being blamed of seeking sympathy or being a victim. If one has been a victim the situation stands as a fact. How we all deal with it is subject to Culture and personal choices. It only boxes you in if you allow it to be so. At any rate I grow suspicious of a fire when I see smoke. I hope that is not the reason for your argumentative style.
I think I see where you're coming from with the "degrees" thing, I won't ask you to explain on here, and I won't offer any opinions either.
Actually, I was surprised to find my g/f sharing some of the same opinions.
I used to blog regularly over on MySpace when I first came back from the war and one blog I posted was regarding what I called degrees of rape -- not in severity, but with regard to accountability. One woman absolutely went ape-s*** on me for three days before removing herself from my company entirely.
At the time I KNEW my thoughts would elicit some reactions, I just wasn't sure what kind. All in all I wasn't surprised by her severity.
What not only surprised me but absolutely drove me bonkers was that after the fuss had calmed down, several female friends -- and by "several" I mean the upper teens -- wrote to me privately and confessed that they agreed with me on many counts and that I'd brought up points they'd never considered before when confronted with the topic.
Yet not a single one of them spoke out during the hubbub. When I asked why the sweeping answer from each of them was that A) she didn't want to get involved with the fuss because B) women tend to be especially harsh when it comes to that topic, even with other women.
In other words each of them had not only practiced avoidance, they'd allowed themselves to be shouted down by what they feared was "popular opinion", would NOT go out on a limb to state thoughts they felt moved against the tide.
One of the pitfalls that we're never, ever supposed to discuss or mention because it makes for "misogyny" is the problem of false rape accusations.
Bear with me for a second because I DO have a point pertinent to the OP's question.
It does NOT take a genius to know that there are women out there who have been raped; there are other rapes taking place every single day and despite that I believe in degrees of rape, in the end I think anyone who perpetrates rape on another should be held accountable for his or her actions. (I know, I know -- my suggestion of "degrees" of rape just opens up a HUGE can of worms, but let's not dwell on that just yet).
If every woman in this forum can actually be taken at face value then the indication would be that I've encountered some horrible women in my lifetime, a darned lot of them! However, whatever the case may be, I have been forced time and time again to deal with false rape accusations, over and over and over, both as an NCO in the military for nearly 22 years and as a man.
The PROBLEM here is that the women who perpetrate false accusations hurt not only the men they're targeting, but they hurt women as well. They hurt every woman who has actually been raped by diminishing her plight through a kind of ambiguous belittlement and they hurt women who enter relationships with men who have either endured or witnessed false accusations because we humans (we men being 50 percent of that equation) tend to be the sum of our thoughts and experiences. Men who witness or endure that sort of thing repeatedly become jaded toward women who cry rape, or even "foul/shenanigans" on virtually any count.
Is it fair? Not really, but it's not a thing set in motion by men.
In my life I've known two women who were actually raped. Their actions, their words -- all of it indicated the attitude of someone who has endured something terrible. One of them overcame it magnificently, turned out tougher for it BUT is still skittish even years later; the other never quite got over it and her life has been a jumble of messed up relationships.
Because of my status as an NCO and because of the frequency of rape allegations in the military I've spent some time looking over case studies of rape victims. There are certain "rules of thumb" which tend to hold true just as there are rules of thumb for victims of virtually ANY traumatic event.
My own wife claims to be a victim of rape; however, despite her story (which has slipped on occasion and has certainly changed several times during the course of our marriage -- NOT a good thing) she exhibits NONE of the signs I've learned to attribute to actual rape victims. She never has. And most unfortunately for myself (as her husband) and for the man she put in prison (convicted of sexual assault but NOT of rape, who served all eight years of his sentence), she's said things to me which have led me to the conviction that her entire story was a mixture of falsification and fortuitous timing for a BDSM relationship she wished to end.
Prior to our marriage she told me she had been raped. I had no reason to disbelieve her and it didn't affect the relationship at all, other than filing itself in the back of my mind as a "fact" of her life.
AFTER our marriage was when I learned more details, such as the BDSM nature of her prior relationship...
...or that she hadn't actually called the police as she'd previously told me, instead that a coworker at her school had noticed marks on her wrists and called the police...
...or her light-hearted chuckle one evening as we lay in bed discussing the guy in prison, when she laughingly remarked "It's a good thing I bruise really easily or it might not have stuck!"
The box of photos of them together she kept in her room, clothing and articles of... "enjoyment"... they'd had together I discovered later. Her absolutely cavalier attitude about the whole thing UNLESS it was brought up in front of her parents (the man was constantly pushing to prove his innocence from prison via various forms and papers).
And so many other things.
(For those wondering why I wouldn't flee such a person, I've been to two different lawyers and have been told that my evidence is circumstantial and "still not enough" to guarantee me custody of my son -- so I stay rather than leave him with her, and I keep the peace and bide my time.)
Back to the question:
I've been part of nearly two dozen rape investigations in the military. Nearly every single one of those involved a woman who recanted under questioning. That's NOT a good thing, not at all.
Rape really, really happens every single day and that's awful, absolutely awful. But false allegations take place every single day as well, and that is possibly even MORE awful because of the needless damage it does to real victims and because of the victims it creates out of thin air. More sadly, it's not like for every five rapes there's one false allegation; more like the other way around -- and it's enough to make men wary because it's so easy and it's such a quick fall-back for so many women who don't get their way.
I lost an acquaintance recently (as in lost the relationship, not anyone's death) because I didn't go along with her story about having been raped. At first she told me she was -- and if she had let it go there, I'd have been none the wiser. It was really none of my business but she seemed determined to tell me about it.
She complained about the cops, saying they failed to investigate. When I pressed, asking if NO ONE had looked into things at all, she complained about the female detective who questioned her, saying the woman showed a misogynistic bias.
The more she talked, the more it came out that this really wasn't rape at all. She dressed VERY skimpily to meet me for the first time at this coffee meeting, despite that I'd told her I'm married and only looking for friends (we were long-time online acquaintances). I don't mean woman showing off skimpy, I mean LOOK AT THESE skimpy. As she described the scenario the night of her alleged rape it seems she'd been after this man for several dates and her friends knew about it in sordid detail.
It turned out she'd bragged to her friends that she was going to go home with him and nail him. It turned out she'd gotten herself quite intoxicated and had been publicly lascivious with him while bragging.
And she'd gone home with him.
A week later she decided it was rape when he failed to return any of her phone calls.
All of that from our meeting in a coffee shop and me asking a few simple questions regarding the story she proceeded to spew at me. In the end I made it clear I didn't believe her and our acquaintance was over. Troubled girl, but good riddance.
So when answering the question about whether I learned a woman I was with was the victim of a rape or gang-rape and this knowledge would cause a change in my attitude, the only thing I can say is this:
It would depend on whether I believed her.
If I believed her, then no, it wouldn't harm our relationship because it was never her choice or her action and she can't possibly be held accountable for that. I'd be sympathetic, and I'd do my best to assure her nothing changed between us.
If I didn't believe her, then yes it would affect things because if she'll lie about something that horrible, whether for some sick brand of attention or to cover her arse with regard to something else, then she's absolutely untrustworthy and will lie about anything because the welfare of others is meaningless to her.
Amazing post. EVERYONE should read it. It immediately reminded me of the Duke lacrosse rape allegations which turned out to be completely falsified.
I agree rape is horrible and heinous, but Sasquatch's comments are very insightful and I agree: every time a woman falsely accuses a man of rape, she is disparaging the anguish, pain, and horror felt by every woman who is been raped, and she is also working to diminish sympathy from both men and women towards rape victims.
I used to blog regularly over on MySpace when I first came back from the war and one blog I posted was regarding what I called degrees of rape -- not in severity, but with regard to accountability. One woman absolutely went ape-s*** on me for three days before removing herself from my company entirely.
I don't know exactly what you said, but one possible source of objections is the fact that rape is practically the only kind of crime where the immediate, knee-jerk reaction is to try to find some way to blame the victim for her own rape. A male victim of a mugging will never be put under the same scrutiny and find himself questioned whether he was asking to be mugged. Even if his behavior is stupid and dangerous, it would never be held to reduce the culpability of the perpetrator. With rape, however, the argument of "degrees" isn't helped by the fact that a fair number of people bend over backwards to justify rapists and blame the victims -- like Judge Archie Simonson, for example, who held that rape was a "normal reaction" to the sight of 16-year-old girl wearing jeans and a turtleneck sweater. The way many women see it -- and I think it's a reasonable view -- is that rape victims ultimately end up being admonished that had they only not been attractive, or young, or outside the home, or single, or sexually active, or female, or alive, this wouldn't have happened; in other words, any way you look at it, it's your own fault. Even if you are an uber-religious Christian virgin; because that qualifies as "teasing". Bottom line, women might be more receptive to the question of victim's accountability for their own rape, when the same issue is raised in other kinds of crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprawling-Homeowner
every time a woman falsely accuses a man of rape, she is disparaging the anguish, pain, and horror felt by every woman who is been raped, and she is also working to diminish sympathy from both men and women towards rape victims.
On the other hand, every time rape goes unreported, it emboldens rapists to do it more, and to do it worse. So it all evens out in the end. By the way -- a recantation isn't an automatic indication that the rape allegation was false. Lots of victims recant under pressure -- the same way that innocent people can be pressured into confessing to crimes they did not commit.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
