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Second: How do Jews interpret the lines Campbell is talking about (re: the Jews being scattered, punished, etc.)? Are they written an entirely different way in the "Old Testament" from what's written in the Tanakh? Is that the same as the Torah? I am asking purely out of curiosity. I am not Christian, just to give you that little bit of background. Personally, I too am a little off-put by the way Christianity tends to cherry-pick what it wants to believe (or enforce) out of the Old Testament (sorry for calling it that but again I'm not sure this is what you mean by Tanakh).
For the record, I can not, in a million years, believe that God would have wanted anything like the Holocaust to happen, *especially* to His own people. And I have a BIG problem with the whole "so-and-so was punished by someone close to him dying," etc. repeating theme (as Christians interpret it -- I was Christian at one time, at least loosely, so this is the only way I've heard any of these stories translated). Ditto for the "all those infants and preschoolers and businessmen and mothers and grandmas and grandpas and teachers and students and people just living their lives quietly who were sent to the gas chambers were being punished by God, as written in the OT! They were THAT sinful! Or wait, maybe it was somebody else...ancestors...but hell, they deserved it" bit (because frankly...it comes down to this, doesn't it?). But that's beside the point...just letting you know I respect that Jewish belief is Jewish belief and am, frankly, horrified at some insults toward the Jews being stated here...just sayin'.
Second: How do Jews interpret the lines Campbell is talking about (re: the Jews being scattered, punished, etc.)? Are they written an entirely different way in the "Old Testament" from what's written in the Tanakh? Is that the same as the Torah? I am asking purely out of curiosity. I am not Christian, just to give you that little bit of background. Personally, I too am a little off-put by the way Christianity tends to cherry-pick what it wants to believe (or enforce) out of the Old Testament (sorry for calling it that but again I'm not sure this is what you mean by Tanakh).
For the record, I can not, in a million years, believe that God would have wanted anything like the Holocaust to happen, *especially* to His own people. And I have a BIG problem with the whole "so-and-so was punished by someone close to him dying," etc. repeating theme (as Christians interpret it -- I was Christian at one time, at least loosely, so this is the only way I've heard any of these stories translated). Ditto for the "all those infants and preschoolers and businessmen and mothers and grandmas and grandpas and teachers and students and people just living their lives quietly who were sent to the gas chambers were being punished by God, as written in the OT! They were THAT sinful! Or wait, maybe it was somebody else...ancestors...but hell, they deserved it" bit (because frankly...it comes down to this, doesn't it?). But that's beside the point...just letting you know I respect that Jewish belief is Jewish belief and am, frankly, horrified at some insults toward the Jews being stated here...just sayin'.
TAnakh is the Hebrew scripture. It means Torah/Neviim/Ketuvim which in English is the first 5 books of Moses, Prophets, writings.
I will write more later when I have time. I have a class to go to.
Second: How do Jews interpret the lines Campbell is talking about (re: the Jews being scattered, punished, etc.)? Are they written an entirely different way in the "Old Testament" from what's written in the Tanakh? Is that the same as the Torah? I am asking purely out of curiosity. I am not Christian, just to give you that little bit of background. Personally, I too am a little off-put by the way Christianity tends to cherry-pick what it wants to believe (or enforce) out of the Old Testament (sorry for calling it that but again I'm not sure this is what you mean by Tanakh).
For the record, I can not, in a million years, believe that God would have wanted anything like the Holocaust to happen, *especially* to His own people. And I have a BIG problem with the whole "so-and-so was punished by someone close to him dying," etc. repeating theme (as Christians interpret it -- I was Christian at one time, at least loosely, so this is the only way I've heard any of these stories translated). Ditto for the "all those infants and preschoolers and businessmen and mothers and grandmas and grandpas and teachers and students and people just living their lives quietly who were sent to the gas chambers were being punished by God, as written in the OT! They were THAT sinful! Or wait, maybe it was somebody else...ancestors...but hell, they deserved it" bit (because frankly...it comes down to this, doesn't it?). But that's beside the point...just letting you know I respect that Jewish belief is Jewish belief and am, frankly, horrified at some insults toward the Jews being stated here...just sayin'.
Not all Jewish people hide their head in the sand. And not all Jewish people deny their own Scriptures. Prime Minister of Israel, Netanyahu at Auschwitz stated that the Prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled.
Reported by Joel Rosenberg.
Consider the link below.
Netanyahu at Auschwitz Says Prophecies of Ezekiel 37 Have Been Fulfilled: Print (http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/print.php?&ArticleID=5792 - broken link)
As Joel Rosenberg points out.
If the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have come to pass in our lifetime, isn't it remotely possible that the prophecies of Ezekiel 38-39 will come true in our lifetime as well?
No doubt, are more humanistic and liberal Jewish friends will claim that Netanyahu must of been reading from a Christian Translation. Or maybe they will say he does not understand the Jewish faith. After all, what would the Prime Minister of Israel know about the Jewish faith? LOL
I was told that I was not a Jew and would never understand their belief. Yet can thay make that same claim of Netanyahu. There are Jewish people today that labor hard at denying God's word. Yet thankfully there are still Jewish people, who still believe.
Last edited by Campbell34; 12-13-2010 at 10:39 PM..
God has been put on trial and the verdict is...........?
I believe humanity is guilty. One evil man had a vision of a world without Jews, and a world of a pure aryan race. He set it in motion, people turned their backs and the evil got bigger and bigger so finally 12 million people were killed.
When it was all over people said they didn't know.
Second: How do Jews interpret the lines Campbell is talking about (re: the Jews being scattered, punished, etc.)? Are they written an entirely different way in the "Old Testament" from what's written in the Tanakh? Is that the same as the Torah? I am asking purely out of curiosity. I am not Christian, just to give you that little bit of background. Personally, I too am a little off-put by the way Christianity tends to cherry-pick what it wants to believe (or enforce) out of the Old Testament (sorry for calling it that but again I'm not sure this is what you mean by Tanakh).
Zechariah 12:10 - 2 different translations
JPS translation:
But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born" (JPS)
King James translation
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
There are differences in the translations and thus the traditions of belief. In both traditions there are differences in how the writings are translated.
As to the writings of the prophets of the Hebrew Bible they were speaking to the people at that time. There was still the divisions of Israel and Judah. There was Egypt and Assyria who were politically involved. There were issues of the worship of Baal which was more the problem of the northern kingdom Israel. (There is a good books on the prophets by Abraham J Heshel that I have just started to read. It gives a good background of the prophets. ) there was the admonishment of Israel and Judah for their sins but there is also forgiveness. We read it as speaking to a people at that time.
There is also a difference in how Jews and Christians read their bibles. Jews are not trying to prove Jesus as messiah, Christians are.
For the record, I can not, in a million years, believe that God would have wanted anything like the Holocaust to happen, *especially* to His own people. And I have a BIG problem with the whole "so-and-so was punished by someone close to him dying," etc. repeating theme (as Christians interpret it -- I was Christian at one time, at least loosely, so this is the only way I've heard any of these stories translated). Ditto for the "all those infants and preschoolers and businessmen and mothers and grandmas and grandpas and teachers and students and people just living their lives quietly who were sent to the gas chambers were being punished by God, as written in the OT! They were THAT sinful! Or wait, maybe it was somebody else...ancestors...but hell, they deserved it" bit (because frankly...it comes down to this, doesn't it?). But that's beside the point...just letting you know I respect that Jewish belief is Jewish belief and am, frankly, horrified at some insults toward the Jews being stated here...just sayin'.
I agree, I am horrified too at what some folks say here.
JPS translation:
But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born" (JPS)
King James translation
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Thanks for the info, Jazzymom. I did feel deep down that it was actually a literal rewording in some way and not that the words were identical (they are obviously not! Holy cow) but "read" differently or "read selectively" (as is being intimated in some posts here but also as is occasionally intimated IRL situations). The original translation is full of compassion. It's actually quite beautiful. By contrast, the King James one, to me, sounds like punishment via emotional pain due to having "pierced" "me" (God/Jesus, yes?). Two very different concepts and also just literally two different statements.
The rewording for a slant toward Jesus having been the Messiah makes sense, too.
Thanks for the info, Jazzymom. I did feel deep down that it was actually a literal rewording in some way and not that the words were identical (they are obviously not! Holy cow) but "read" differently or "read selectively" (as is being intimated in some posts here but also as is occasionally intimated IRL situations). The original translation is full of compassion. It's actually quite beautiful. By contrast, the King James one, to me, sounds like punishment via emotional pain due to having "pierced" "me" (God/Jesus, yes?). Two very different concepts and also just literally two different statements.
The rewording for a slant toward Jesus having been the Messiah makes sense, too.
Thanks for the explanation.
Your welcome.
I do believe that when religion has the belief of their truth and all others are wrong and the need for salvation then you really do need to offer proofs.
When you have a faith that does not need to be proven because the whole idea of its rightness over all others does not exist you do not need to prove.
I am just Jewish. If others want to be Jewish thats fine if not thats fine too.
Thanks for the info, Jazzymom. I did feel deep down that it was actually a literal rewording in some way and not that the words were identical (they are obviously not! Holy cow) but "read" differently or "read selectively" (as is being intimated in some posts here but also as is occasionally intimated IRL situations). The original translation is full of compassion. It's actually quite beautiful. By contrast, the King James one, to me, sounds like punishment via emotional pain due to having "pierced" "me" (God/Jesus, yes?). Two very different concepts and also just literally two different statements.
The rewording for a slant toward Jesus having been the Messiah makes sense, too.
Thanks for the explanation.
Of course, Jazzymom forgot to mention that there are two JPS translations. And the orginal translation reads nothing like their present one. And in fact, it appears their present one was written to obscure the orginal meanings.
Zec. 12:10 from the orginal Jewish Publication Society 1917 Old Testament.
Zec. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
NOW, WATCH HOW THEY CHANGE THE WORDING IN THEIR SECOND AND MORE MODERN TRANSLATION.
Zec. 12:10 But I will fill the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; they shall lament to me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first born.
NOW WHY DID JAZZYMOM FAIL TO TELL YOU ABOUT THE TWO TRANSLATIONS OF THE JPS?
Their New JPS translation does not agree with the Christian translation, nor does it agree with the orginal Jewish translation either. The last time I saw this kind of mistranslation was when the WatchTower Society came out with their New World Translation. And they changed the words in the Bible to get them to agree with their doctrine. And I believe the reason Jazzymom forgot to mention about the orginal JPS. Is because the New JPS translation is a radical departure from the orginal Jewish writings.
If there is a literal rewording going on you can't blame it on the Christian translation. And you can't blame it on the Orginal Jewish JPS translation either. It is the New and improved JPS translation that is guilty of rewording.
Last edited by Campbell34; 12-14-2010 at 11:21 PM..
Agreed. This wasn't a work of ANY god. It was humans being inhuman. There is NO other place to put the blame...IMO.
Well, I guess it's time to play ignore the God of the Bible again. So this is what the God of the Bible said.
Ezekiel 39:23 The nations will then know why Israel was sent away to exile-it was punishment for sin, for they were unfaithful to their God. Therefore, I turned away from them (AND LET THEIR ENEMIES DESTROY THEM).
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