Question for Christians from a confirmed Atheist (agnostic, Muslim, bible)
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Be honest now: if you had your way, would you mandate Christianity in our Western culture? Knowing that you cannot convince us atheists (or, for that matter, the Muslims or Buddhists or what have you...) of the existence of your particular deist entity, that your arguments that try to logically prove the existence of that one God, or that all the stories in the bible are literally correct, what exactly are you trying to accomplish in demeaning our lack of beliefs?
Actually, atheists, Muslims, Buddhists et al... get convinced all the time. (And "Christians" become atheist, Muslim, Buddhists sometimes too) But as for demeaning your beliefs, it's probably just push-back don't you think? Just read the tone of your post, or the millions of others around any message board like this. I certainly don't want to demean your lack of beliefs. I'm just sayin'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Why do you often claim we're morally rudderless, and without a reason to live and/or enjoy our lives? That we're spiritually bereft, empty and valueless shells? What, exactly, do you think you can honestly accomplish here?
Bit exaggerated (I'm pretty sure only a small minority of kooks would say an atheist is an "empty and valueless shell" or "without a reason to live" and those who would say that probably can't spell valueless...) but I get what you're saying.
But I'm sure this sort of thing comes from the fact that when you are your own god... and there is no other, no higher, no standard of morality other than what you make for yourself, that you have the potential to drift along with the culture and the times with issues like morality.
Of course, the atheist friends I have do indeed have morals and ethics, and too many believers in God morally drift themselves, so I think your point is made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
In the furthest extreme, would you perhaps want us incarcerated or branded and labeled, or moved to certain neighborhoods so you could keep an eye on us?
Don't be silly. Well, I guess you can. It's not illegal yet. :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Just curious you understand, what your end-game motives might be.
To share the Gospel of Christ so that everyone has a chance to hear it and decide for themselves. To defend and promote a belief in God so that people may have reason to believe, and take hold of God's provision for eternal life. The end-game is to offer the message. Can't force it. Doesn't work that way, despite what some power-hungry types say.
Many persons of all belief and anti-faith systems have succumbed to an incredible pack of lies about the nature of humankindness and the center of all this garbage appears to be the "former" Soviet Union, Communist China, English Socialism, and American Democracy. Majority rule will take what few freedoms we have left and religion is just one of the vectors they are using on American values. The most perceptive Americans simply are not automatic believers and the Deist con-men just can't stand us, yet they don't see that they are Communist dupes. When's the last time a "police" officer acted like an American instead of a Nazi toward you, personally?
Basking as I am in the peace-filled glow of The 2011 New Year (and anticipating that date, what is it, May 12, 2011, when it's all coming to an abrupt and judgmental end?) for now at least, I'll demure to my more peaceful and tolerant side.
It's my January/New Year's Resolution. Peace be with you, brothers and sisters!
The point was made above that in fact, some folks do effectively change their stripes. I certainly did, as did five of my University friends right alongside me during my significant ideological change-up. From being a Christian to notbeing one. From having to adhere to a institutionalized set of principles, of official rules and codified behaviors ("You must pray like "THIS" and say "THIS"!") to having a free mind to explore whatever I chose to.
It took me another 10 or so years before I felt fully free to do that without some vague feelings of guilt, of perhaps insulting The Lord God, until I finally rid my sub-conscious of that contamination (as I saw it), never having to dodge a single lightning bolt, not even once!
And since then, even here on C-D, I've met at least another 10 folks who taught themselves right out of codified, formalized religious thinking. So, yes, you can change if you want to. It does seem to go predominantly from Christianity towards atheism far far more than the other way. In fact, I know of only one person that went that way, and he was never an established thoughtful atheist in the first pace, he just didn't necessarily believe in or even think about God. He had no specific thoughts on it either way. His strong-willed born-again wifey simply "convinced" him to go to her Southern Baptist church.
By the time I'd worked my way through most of my higher formal education, which coincidentally centered on the sciences, I was free and able to apply that book and lab knowledge in the field and see what true intellectual freedom was all about. Then, 25 years of a career cemented my feelings through direct and indirect experiences and introspection.
The debating processes right here on C-D finally put the icing on that cake. To objectively view how most fundamentalist Christians react and argue has been a real eye-opener.
Basking as I am in the peace-filled glow of The 2011 New Year (and anticipating that date, what is it, May 12, 2011, when it's all coming to an abrupt and judgmental end?) for now at least, I'll demure to my more peaceful and tolerant side.
It's my January/New Year's Resolution. Peace be with you, brothers and sisters!
The point was made above that in fact, some folks do effectively change their stripes. I certainly did, as did five of my University friends right alongside me during my significant ideological change-up. From being a Christian to notbeing one. From having to adhere to a institutionalized set of principles, of official rules and codified behaviors ("You must pray like "THIS" and say "THIS"!") to having a free mind to explore whatever I chose to.
It took me another 10 or so years before I felt fully free to do that without some vague feelings of guilt, of perhaps insulting The Lord God, until I finally rid my sub-conscious of that contamination (as I saw it), never having to dodge a single lightning bolt, not even once!
And since then, even here on C-D, I've met at least another 10 folks who taught themselves right out of codified, formalized religious thinking. So, yes, you can change if you want to. It does seem to go predominantly from Christianity towards atheism far far more than the other way. In fact, I know of only one person that went that way, and he was never an established thoughtful atheist in the first pace, he just didn't necessarily believe in or even think about God. He had no specific thoughts on it either way. His strong-willed born-again wifey simply "convinced" him to go to her Southern Baptist church.
By the time I'd worked my way through most of my higher formal education, which coincidentally centered on the sciences, I was free and able to apply that book and lab knowledge in the field and see what true intellectual freedom was all about. Then, 25 years of a career cemented my feelings through direct and indirect experiences and introspection.
The debating processes right here on C-D finally put the icing on that cake. To objectively view how most fundamentalist Christians react and argue has been a real eye-opener.
Enjoy your New Years, folks!
Hey...I did the "Believer--to Atheist--to Believer" thing.
rifle...you know, without the "Fundie Extremists" (on BOTH sides), this board would lose all it's "fun and entertainment" value!!
rifle, ol' boy...where is it you find an abundance of these "Christians" you speak of in your post...the ones that would want to force their belief on everyone, even to extent of imprisoning those that don't accept it? Because I have to tell you...I've very seldom met anybody like that. I've seen a few nutjobs on the news...like that Westboro crew...and have run into some "super preachy" types...but they are so few and far between that they can be chalked up to the fact that in any very large group you can find a few that are over-the-top radical.
The "core mandate" of Christianity itself, as passed down in the legend of the man known as Jesus the Christ---"Love each other, and treat others the way you would want to be treated"---IS sort of "mandated" in our criminal and civil laws/regulations/ordinances/codes...in that they proscribe doing hateful things and/or engaging in conduct that the people who made those laws have determined would be a way we shouldn't treat each other. So...we already sorta have that mandate...and you can be imprisoned, or "kept an eye on", for not following it.
And, Merry Christmas to YOU...hope you and yours are enjoying the holiday.
These Christians that rifleman talks about are also hateful towards other Christians believe it or not. I've had some of that venom spit at me from "Christians" myself, being a fellow "Christian." This was because I was not rich.
I found myself thinking "I may not be a Christian, but I am someone who follows Christ." In fact I almost decided that I do not want to call myself a Christian anymore and just call myself someone who loves God, then I found some Christians who actually accepted me. (or they found me)
No matter what I would've called myself, I still love Christ.
You may not see a lot of them, but they are there. They are almost always worse than the so called "evil" Atheists that they preach at.
Let's remember that Jesus' greatest adversaries on the Earth were not Homosexual Atheists, they were the self righteous heterosexual Christians of his day. (Yes I know what the Bible says about them. I'm saying the Pharisees are the same today as they were then and they would spit the worst venom at Christ to this day.)
When rifleman and others mention some ultra-zealous Christians who sometimes infer that they might prefer their religion interjected into our government, I notice many Christians on this forum are shocked, taken aback, etc. They may think, "What in the world? I've never known any Christians like that. Where are these people getting the idea that Christians go around acting like that?" I should point out that, compared to many of the Christians I know personally in "real life", most of the Christians on this board are quite reasonable and do no disservice to their religion at all (quite the opposite, usually). Unfortunately not all are like that, and in the more insane parts of the country they seem to be very much in the minority.
For example, just yesterday I heard my boss, with no sign of sarcasm or humor, state that all homosexuals should be castrated. No doubt many reading this will think this person is a unique case, but I hear comments similar to this multiple times a week, from a wide range of people who all claim to be Christians. If asked about interjecting their religion into our government or otherwise forcing it upon others, some would flat out admit that this is what they would like to see. Others would claim they would never want to force their beliefs upon others, yet they will fully support publicly held prayers in school, the Ten Commandments displayed in courthouses or any other government buildings, their particular brand of creationism taught in public schools, etc. For whatever reason, they don't see this as forcing their beliefs upon anyone. Sometimes I read posts on this board just to be reminded that all Christians are, in fact, NOT like this, thankfully.
When rifleman and others mention some ultra-zealous Christians who sometimes infer that they might prefer their religion interjected into our government, I notice many Christians on this forum are shocked, taken aback, etc. They may think, "What in the world? I've never known any Christians like that. Where are these people getting the idea that Christians go around acting like that?" I should point out that, compared to many of the Christians I know personally in "real life", most of the Christians on this board are quite reasonable and do no disservice to their religion at all (quite the opposite, usually). Unfortunately not all are like that, and in the more insane parts of the country they seem to be very much in the minority.
For example, just yesterday I heard my boss, with no sign of sarcasm or humor, state that all homosexuals should be castrated. No doubt many reading this will think this person is a unique case, but I hear comments similar to this multiple times a week, from a wide range of people who all claim to be Christians. If asked about interjecting their religion into our government or otherwise forcing it upon others, some would flat out admit that this is what they would like to see. Others would claim they would never want to force their beliefs upon others, yet they will fully support publicly held prayers in school, the Ten Commandments displayed in courthouses or any other government buildings, their particular brand of creationism taught in public schools, etc. For whatever reason, they don't see this as forcing their beliefs upon anyone. Sometimes I read posts on this board just to be reminded that all Christians are, in fact, NOT like this, thankfully.
The Christians you talk about sound a lot like the ones in the town I grew up in. I attended a christian school for a few years. One day the topic of violence towards gays was brought up and one of our teacher's opinion on it was this: "if gays acted like human beings, maybe then they'd deserve to be treated as such."
Sometimes I think we need to replace "What would Jesus do" with "What would Jesus think" when it comes to some people.
Actually, atheists, Muslims, Buddhists et al... get convinced all the time. (And "Christians" become atheist, Muslim, Buddhists sometimes too) But as for demeaning your beliefs, it's probably just push-back don't you think? Just read the tone of your post, or the millions of others around any message board like this. I certainly don't want to demean your lack of beliefs. I'm just sayin'.
Bit exaggerated (I'm pretty sure only a small minority of kooks would say an atheist is an "empty and valueless shell" or "without a reason to live" and those who would say that probably can't spell valueless...) but I get what you're saying.
But I'm sure this sort of thing comes from the fact that when you are your own god... and there is no other, no higher, no standard of morality other than what you make for yourself, that you have the potential to drift along with the culture and the times with issues like morality.
Of course, the atheist friends I have do indeed have morals and ethics, and too many believers in God morally drift themselves, so I think your point is made.
Don't be silly. Well, I guess you can. It's not illegal yet. :-)
To share the Gospel of Christ so that everyone has a chance to hear it and decide for themselves. To defend and promote a belief in God so that people may have reason to believe, and take hold of God's provision for eternal life. The end-game is to offer the message. Can't force it. Doesn't work that way, despite what some power-hungry types say.
And Jesus said that no one goes to the Father unless He beckons them. Seems like there are a few here that God has turned away from.
And Jesus said that no one goes to the Father unless He beckons them. Seems like there are a few here that God has turned away from.
Maybe Allah does that too. Is that why you're not a Muslim? They have all the answers as well and are just as convinced as you are. I would also submit that according to many Fundamentalist Christians, you are totally lost, off-the-mark and a member of a pagan based goddess-worshipping Roman cult, you know, being Catholic and all. The Christian god must have not called you either.
Maybe Allah does that too. Is that why you're not a Muslim? They have all the answers as well and are just as convinced as you are. I would also submit that according to many Fundamentalist Christians, you are totally lost, off-the-mark and a member of a pagan based goddess-worshipping Roman cult, you know, being Catholic and all. The Christian god must have not called you either.
You are in my prayers. May God Bless you.
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