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I believed as you did for 30 years. But the past 3 years I've come to realize universal salvation is the truth, and I've been searching for understanding on "tough" scriptures like the one you posted above.
John 3:36 is not as open & shut as you'd make it out to be.
First, did you ever reject the Son? Even once? I think its fair to say that WE ALL HAVE. So if we are to take your literalistic view of that scripture, hmm, let's read it again:
whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Uh oh. Every single human has rejected the son at least once, so they will not see life and God's wrath remains on them. So by your own theological interpretation of this verse, everyone will not see life and will go to hell - for that is how you interpret "God's wrath" right? But of course the verse doesn't say that.
First what "life" is this talking about? What is God's wrath? You make assumptions that this means literally endless life in heaven and literal endless hell of torment, but with those assumptions we can come to the conclusion that since everyone has rejected Christ everyone will go to hell. So there is a problem with that interpretation.
But you might argue "oh well if you reject Him and then come back and repent and accept Him - then you will see life and God's wrath will not remain on you". And I will say BINGO. Universal salvation.
Are you eating your hat yet?
The People's New Testament Commentary
36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. Eternal life and eternal death turn upon trust in Christ. He who believes on the Son with a heartfelt, obedient faith, a faith that trusts all and surrenders all to the will of Christ, is born again and "hath eternal life." The faith that saves is a faith that moves us to come to Christ.
Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 36. Hath everlasting life
He has already the seed of this life in his soul, having been made a partaker of the grace and spirit of him in whom he has believed. See Clarke on John 3:8. He that believeth not
Or, obeyeth not-απειθων: from α, negative, and πειθω, to persuade, or πειθομαι, to obey-the want of the obedience of faith. The person who will not be persuaded, in consequence, does not believe; and, not having believed, he cannot obey.
Matthew Henry Commentary
The words of Jesus were the words of God; he had the Spirit, not by measure, as the prophets, but in all fulness. Everlasting life could only be had by faith in Him, and might be thus obtained; whereas all those, who believe not in the Son of God, cannot partake of salvation, but the wrath of God for ever rests upon them.
The words of Jesus were the words of God; he had the Spirit, not by measure, as the prophets, but in all fulness. Everlasting life could only be had by faith in Him, and might be thus obtained; whereas all those, who believe not in the Son of God, cannot partake of salvation, but the wrath of God for ever rests upon them.*
*Exceptions of course being for babies, young children, mentally retarded..........
36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. Eternal life and eternal death turn upon trust in Christ. He who believes on the Son with a heartfelt, obedient faith, a faith that trusts all and surrenders all to the will of Christ, is born again and "hath eternal life." The faith that saves is a faith that moves us to come to Christ.
Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 36. Hath everlasting life
He has already the seed of this life in his soul, having been made a partaker of the grace and spirit of him in whom he has believed. See Clarke on John 3:8. He that believeth not
Or, obeyeth not-απειθων: from α, negative, and πειθω, to persuade, or πειθομαι, to obey-the want of the obedience of faith. The person who will not be persuaded, in consequence, does not believe; and, not having believed, he cannot obey.
Matthew Henry Commentary
The words of Jesus were the words of God; he had the Spirit, not by measure, as the prophets, but in all fulness. Everlasting life could only be had by faith in Him, and might be thus obtained; whereas all those, who believe not in the Son of God, cannot partake of salvation, but the wrath of God for ever rests upon them.
None of that addresses the point I made.
If its a simple fact that not believing in Christ dooms one to hell, then we are all going there because every single one of us has not believed in Christ at some point.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Did you ever "believeth not" on the Son? Then by your interpretation you shall not see life. None of us will. Its that simple.
If its a simple fact that not believing in Christ dooms one to hell, then we are all going there because every single one of us has not believed in Christ at some point.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Did you ever "believeth not" on the Son? Then by your interpretation you shall not see life. None of us will. Its that simple.
You know as well as I do that means a conscious decision to accept or reject Christ. Unis have to "stretch" the clear meaning of a passage to make your point.
Can you provide any commentary by those who've studied the original language that's backs up Universalism?
You know as well as I do that means a conscious decision to accept or reject Christ. Unis have to "stretch" the clear meaning of a passage to make your point.
Well that is one interpretation from the text. So what happens if one doesn't make a conscious decision for either alternative? Free pass into ... where? ( ie. the "disclaimer" for those who never heard...)
But regardless, what about people who consciously reject Christ and then decades later consciously accept Christ? Or vice versa - consciously accepted Christ and then decades later consciously rejected Christ? In both cases they rejected Christ - so according to John 3:36 they will not see life. That is what you interpret the text to say.
If you have rejected Christ, you will not see life, and God's wrath remains on you. To hell with everyone I guess.
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Can you provide any commentary by those who've studied the original language that's backs up Universalism?
Why do I need to show any commentary when I just explained how your view of John 3:36 means everyone is going to hell?
Is this going to turn into a "my commentaries are better than your commentaries" type of thing? That would be futile. But there are plenty of resources and studies that show how Christian universalism/universal reconciliation is biblical. This is a good place to start: Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
This site is also good for an intro into the concept: Merciful Truth
Are you saying if someone consciously rejects Christ, they are lost, but then later on that same person comes to consciously accept Christ, they are saved?
Because I agree with you on that. And that is completely compatible with the idea of universal salvation.
You need to widen your view on this. There are many reasons why an omni-* god would purpose to not reveal Himself to someone in this life. There are many things we could not learn or experience if God personally revealed Himself to everyone at the present. That is not to say He would not reveal Himself to everyone eventually.
Give one good reason why he cannot make a personal appearance. He is afterall not a respecter of persons or so we are told.
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I'm not sure what description in the bible you are using - the bible is largely silent on what "heaven" is exactly.
Revelation has a pretty good description plus some of paul's alleged writings
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You are really limiting your view of what a heaven could be. "Never ending boredom" doesn't really fit the picture as I could imagine it.
Bingo, imagine being the key word and not based on anything tangible
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If you are thinking heaven is little more than being an immortal earthly Queen, then I could see how you might not want to be part of that. Or some other such carnal vision. "Yay chocolate and cream cheese for supper again. How boring. I want some brussel sprouts!" Any such carnal ideas are severely underestimating what is in store for us.
Queen wrote the song which was in the movie highlander if you remember. Highlander was immortal unless his head got chopped off.
Well carnal ideas are all we have describing heaven and none of them are appealing
Yes I used to post at tentmaker until I started defending gays.
Last edited by SeekerSA; 03-11-2011 at 02:55 PM..
Reason: formatting
Give one good reason why he cannot make a personal appearance.
Here's one. God wants us to understand and experience what it is like to NOT know if there is a god. This can teach us plenty about hope and faith.
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Revelation has a pretty good description plus some of paul's alleged writings
Yes, but you must realize Revelations is highly symbolic and heavily debated what any of those symbols actually mean.
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You are really limiting your view of what a heaven could be. "Never ending boredom" doesn't really fit the picture as I could imagine it.
Bingo, imagine being the key word and not based on anything tangible
Come on seeker. We're having a discussion here about what heaven could be like. Apparently you "imagine" it will be terrible. You are welcome to that belief. (I realize you don't believe there is any heaven). But don't nitpick that I also "imagine" what it could be like. We are all "imagining". You too... you are just "imagining" it would be terrible to support your belief that it doesn't exist. Effectively: heaven must be terrible so it can't exist. If you don't want to discuss it no problem.
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Queen wrote the song which was in the movie highlander if you remember. Highlander was immortal unless his head got chopped off.
Well carnal ideas are all we have describing heaven and none of them are appealing
Ok, I guess I'm just asking you to try to think beyond the carnal for a moment.
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Yes I used to post at tentmaker until I started defending gays.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Maybe you are both too passionate to see what this verse is saying. The 1st part refers to eternal life the part I am not interested in and the second part life which I am interested in and I really do not give two hoots about the wrath of a non entity. Everyday I wake up I see and perceive life so my non belief has really put that argument to bed.
The saddest thing I witnessed was when my mom passed away last year crying out to an invisible god what she deserved to get this. She had one of the most painful cancers fortunately she did not suffer too long and just like my dad who died of Alzheimer's both had served a non existent god for over 60 years w/o once backsliding. They are together now in the same grave and that is all.
If god was real, then these two folk would have passed peacefully in their sleep w/o the need for a disease to take them in suffering. Both of them held on for dear life and it was me holding their hands that told them to let go. My dad was 81 when he died and my mom 87.
So I seriously doubt god would make a personal appearance to prove his existence cause if I was him, I would be embarrassed.
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chocolate and cream cheese for supper again. How boring. I want some brussel sprouts!" Any such carnal ideas are severely underestimating what is in store for us.
