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God is just a mixture of advertising, marketing and motivation (fear and greed) mixed together in the proper proportions.
The only difference between god belief and insanity is the marketing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djuna
Then, because he screwed up his creatures, he sends himself down to die to appease himself?
Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson
God is Love. Show me a story in the Bible that seems to contradicts that and I will show you how it doesn't.
"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
2 Kings 2.
Exodus 12:29-30 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."
I Chronicles 21:14 "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men."
I Samuel 6:19 "And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
I Samuel 15:2-3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." Isaiah 13:15-16 "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."
Ezekiel 9:5-6 "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: ..."
Exodus 32:27 "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."
Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."
Numbers 15:32-36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."
P.S. I'll be standing by for the Bible apologetics.
The rituals are for our benefit, for our limited human minds, not for God. We crave something physical to hang on to when the subject of what we're pondering is spiritual in nature. Why do we save greeting cards? Its a physical symbol of someone caring for us, even though we cant touch the caring.
The reason God needs us? Think of a parent/child relationship. The parents created and love the child. The desire to have the child love you back isnt an egotistical need for adulation, but is driven by the desire for reciprocity. In any relationship, when you love someone its natural to want them to return that love. Love is what makes the world go around, keeps us as sane as we possibly can be given the world we live in, and gives us a reason to wake up each day and embrace life.
Just think of God as our "heavenly father" as he is referred to by the religious and you'll understand the relationship.
Think of a parent/child relationship. The parents created and love the child. The desire to have the child love you back isnt an egotistical need for adulation, but is driven by the desire for reciprocity. In any relationship, when you love someone its natural to want them to return that love.
Why, why, why do Christians keep comparing us and their god to "Parents and Children"??
They always seem to forget the alleged omnimax attributes of their god. Parents do not have these attributes. An omnimax deity would not "want" for anything.
There is no comparison.
It always makes me smile to think of an omnimax deity that "wants" but doesn't get.
Why, why, why do Christians keep comparing us and their god to "Parents and Children"??
They always seem to forget the alleged omnimax attributes of their god. Parents do not have these attributes. An omnimax deity would not "want" for anything.
There is no comparison.
It always makes me smile to think of an omnimax deity that "wants" but doesn't get.
It's called freedom! Love can only exist if it is given willingly. God cannot force you to love Him. His love for you is expressed in Him giving you that freedom to hate Him. God wants all to be in Heaven but He is not going to force anybody to be there against their will.
This OP and so many of the comments speak so loudly to peoples basic lack in understanding the nature of obedience. The OP doesn't seem to be asking why God needs our presence, but why God needs our obedience. Well, He doesn't need our obedience in the sense that the OP would suggest. Obedience is what we need. Why doesn't anyone ever question why a child needs to obey the parent that tells them not to stick their finger in a light socket? Do they ever question why a parent needs their child to obey them? Why does a parent need a child to clean their room, go to school, go to bed at a decent hour, and all the other things that a parent asks a child to do? Is it so that the parent can feel superior to the child or is it because the parent is trying to prepare the child for something? Like maybe life in a larger world than the confines of their home? Why do some parents encourage their children to be a part of sports, meeting weekly to engage in "rituals" with other kids on a regular basis? Why does a parent instruct the child to listen only to Mom/Dad and not their siblings or peers at school? Maybe it is to prevent the child from being led astray? Why would a parent ever reprimand a child? Maybe to correct bad behavior, that could harm the child and their siblings? Why would a parent ask a child to 1. "Love Mom/Dad with all your heart" and 2."love your siblings as yourself"? Maybe because, if they don't follow #1 then they will ignore #2? Maybe it's because if they disregard #1, then they won't listen to "don't talk to strangers", "don't text while driving", "don't take drugs", "don't touch the hot stove", "don't get mixed up with the wrong crowd", etc....? Is any of this starting to make some sense in why God needs us to listen to and obey Him? Is anyone beginning to understand that if we focus our love and adoration on Him that loves us and seeks the best for us, that maybe we won't focus our love an adoration on things that tear us down and lead to our ruin? Anyone starting to understand that the God of the universe loves humanity just as a benevolent parent loves their child?
The OP ( ie myself) understands very well the concept of obedience. My Father was in the Marines then the Diplomatic service so I can assure you my life was led under strict rules and discipline of iron was the order of the day. Of course my Father also had enough respect to teach my the "why" of things as well as the "how".
My Father did not assume his ways should be mysterious and that I should blindly made to obey and follow orders. I was taught to think for myself, to challenge ( even his own views, we used to have quite involved debates and intellectual discourses together, on a fairly equal footing even as a child) and to dispute , and never to blindly follow in people's footsteps. Which is why I am an Atheist. He is an Atheist and yet I was encouraged to research all religions, taken to sacred buildings all over the world, given world scriptures to read, a lot of knowledge was thrown my way , I was encouraged to speak to people of many religions and then make my own mind up. I was not patronised and told to simply assent to anything simply because. Rules existed and a logical reason was given for them. Be they rules of courtesy or safety ( my own and others).
Children are not morons.They do need strict discipline and guidelines but unless those are explained and a dialogue is engaged into,a child will have no idea as to why he/she should be doing anything . "Because I told you so" would have never worked for me. I need to understand things myself.
My Father ( at least until I turned 13 and he all of sudden decided to become a tyrant) was open minded and did not assume I was too stupid and ignorant to understand his ways.
Also my Father would have moved heaven and earth to save my life had I ever been in danger. Had I been in danger he would have never stood around and watched , washing his hands of it because some murderers' or rapists' free agency would be infringed, or because Earthquakes and Tsunamis are simply there to "teach us" something.
I understand the concept of discipline , I would argue I am actually one of the most self disciplined person I know in fact. It has in fact led me to being Chronically depressed and suffering from Chronic Fatigue syndrome. I would actually argue it possibly caused my Leukaemia years ago. My body and mind in many ways simply not able to cope with such self inflicted discipline. I think too much , too deeply about things and sometimes the brain and body simply short circuit. Nobody's fault, maybe a little genetic and a little of too much discipline.
Comparing God to a Father is simply intellectually risible. A Father ( a loving one at last) will do EVERYTHING He can to help his children, stop them from suffering, and would simply not stand by whilst his children suffer. Period.
A Father respects his children enough not to treat them like morons and withdraw proof of his existence from him. Sorry but a child is never going to realise he/she has a father if there is no earthly evidence of his existence.
Also I find it almost hilarious that I am supposed to worship something I have NO evidence for whatsoever. Millions of years since some human beings have believed in various deities and I am still waiting for some evidence. Even a shred of it would be welcome. I mean that sincerely. I would be more than happy to put my hands up and admit my mistake so feel free to submit your scientific empirical evidence. I suspect if you have any you shall be a billionaire very soon, with all the movie rights, tv shows, books etc....
A creature so omnipresent he is never seen , so omnipotent he allows the most appalling things from genocide to natural disasters to occur without even the slightest shred of remorse for his creation's suffering and so omniscient he does not even realise that the human brain for some simply does not work on "fluffy feelings" , "beliefs" and vague emotions but needs proof and evidence. After all this astonishing creature created me as I am , a doubting Thomas and yet he does not seem that bothered that people like myself require a little more than a little preaching, and wing and a prayer to hold on to.
Sorry if my post indicates a lack of understanding.
I gather we cannot all achieve the higher consciousness you have obviously achieved, my brain is obviously defective or I am so obtuse that years of sincere research into all things Theology have led me to a big blank wall when it comes to a creator.
Not all of us sadly are blessed with the blind obedience you describe. And that is a good thing. Blind obedience is an abnegation of my humanity, my intellectual capabilities and my human right to think for myself .
I have the rights to ask questions, to dig for the truth and the right to analyse the data I am given as a human being in a logical , rational and reasoned manner. Anything else would be disrespectful to my own good self. And IMO to other human beings to. Call it an intellectual duty.
Respect is earned,not a given. I believe in strong discipline but blind obedience is for dogs or people like the North Korean people, brainwashed and terrified by a despot of the worst order into denying themselves and others the humanity we all need to achieve our full potential.
For the record I am about as moral as I can be as a human being and God has nothing to do with it.
My actual Father , the one whose DNA I share, the one who raised me, loved me, taught me not how to be moral but why I should chose that path. He taught me the values of hard work, moral decency, kindness, thoughtfulness towards other, honesty, probity, but allowing me to challenge his teachings as well etc... Sadly he changed when I became a teenager ( fear I suspect and insecurity on his part) but gave me enough of a solid foundation for me to still be extremely grateful to him.
I am no longer in contact with him because though I lost that respect for him when he stopped being a man who respected me. Respect goes both ways. My views no less valid than his or anyone else.
Blind obedience is dangerous because not using your brain and not standing up for what you believe is about the most dangerous thing there is.
Peer pressure is an case in point. Be it in the classroom or the socio cultural pressures most human beings succumb to it is never a good thing. The herd mentality, the desperate need we have for belonging make us all prey to losing our own selves and embracing the worst humanity has to offer. We are ALL guilty of it to a degree but some of us prefer to embrace a slightly less popular path.
I prefer to remain a lonely individual if obedience is what is considered a price to pay for popularity and social acceptance.
We should all live by the dictates of our own conscience and that I believe takes an incredible amount of self discipline and is that hardest choice any of us can make. I do not value "sheep". Anyone can be a member of the herd. Leaving the herd to be yourself is darn sight harder IMO.
I started this thread to see the reactions and thoughts of people and it has been informative though not exactly a surprise.
God is not my Father. With friends like him , who needs enemies...
The OP ( ie myself) understands very well the concept of obedience. My Father was in the Marines then the Diplomatic service so I can assure you my life was led under strict rules and discipline of iron was the order of the day. Of course my Father also had enough respect to teach my the "why" of things as well as the "how".
My Father did not assume his ways should be mysterious and that I should blindly made to obey and follow orders. I was taught to think for myself, to challenge ( even his own views, we used to have quite involved debates and intellectual discourses together, on a fairly equal footing even as a child) and to dispute , and never to blindly follow in people's footsteps. Which is why I am an Atheist. He is an Atheist and yet I was encouraged to research all religions, taken to sacred buildings all over the world, given world scriptures to read, a lot of knowledge was thrown my way , I was encouraged to speak to people of many religions and then make my own mind up. I was not patronised and told to simply assent to anything simply because. Rules existed and a logical reason was given for them. Be they rules of courtesy or safety ( my own and others).
Children are not morons.They do need strict discipline and guidelines but unless those are explained and a dialogue is engaged into,a child will have no idea as to why he/she should be doing anything . "Because I told you so" would have never worked for me. I need to understand things myself.
My Father ( at least until I turned 13 and he all of sudden decided to become a tyrant) was open minded and did not assume I was too stupid and ignorant to understand his ways.
Also my Father would have moved heaven and earth to save my life had I ever been in danger. Had I been in danger he would have never stood around and watched , washing his hands of it because some murderers' or rapists' free agency would be infringed, or because Earthquakes and Tsunamis are simply there to "teach us" something.
I understand the concept of discipline , I would argue I am actually one of the most self disciplined person I know in fact. It has in fact led me to being Chronically depressed and suffering from Chronic Fatigue syndrome. I would actually argue it possibly caused my Leukaemia years ago. My body and mind in many ways simply not able to cope with such self inflicted discipline. I think too much , too deeply about things and sometimes the brain and body simply short circuit. Nobody's fault, maybe a little genetic and a little of too much discipline.
Comparing God to a Father is simply intellectually risible. A Father ( a loving one at last) will do EVERYTHING He can to help his children, stop them from suffering, and would simply not stand by whilst his children suffer. Period.
A Father respects his children enough not to treat them like morons and withdraw proof of his existence from him. Sorry but a child is never going to realise he/she has a father if there is no earthly evidence of his existence.
Also I find it almost hilarious that I am supposed to worship something I have NO evidence for whatsoever. Millions of years since some human beings have believed in various deities and I am still waiting for some evidence. Even a shred of it would be welcome. I mean that sincerely. I would be more than happy to put my hands up and admit my mistake so feel free to submit your scientific empirical evidence. I suspect if you have any you shall be a billionaire very soon, with all the movie rights, tv shows, books etc....
A creature so omnipresent he is never seen , so omnipotent he allows the most appalling things from genocide to natural disasters to occur without even the slightest shred of remorse for his creation's suffering and so omniscient he does not even realise that the human brain for some simply does not work on "fluffy feelings" , "beliefs" and vague emotions but needs proof and evidence. After all this astonishing creature created me as I am , a doubting Thomas and yet he does not seem that bothered that people like myself require a little more than a little preaching, and wing and a prayer to hold on to.
Sorry if my post indicates a lack of understanding.
I gather we cannot all achieve the higher consciousness you have obviously achieved, my brain is obviously defective or I am so obtuse that years of sincere research into all things Theology have led me to a big blank wall when it comes to a creator.
Not all of us sadly are blessed with the blind obedience you describe. And that is a good thing. Blind obedience is an abnegation of my humanity, my intellectual capabilities and my human right to think for myself .
I have the rights to ask questions, to dig for the truth and the right to analyse the data I am given as a human being in a logical , rational and reasoned manner. Anything else would be disrespectful to my own good self. And IMO to other human beings to. Call it an intellectual duty.
Respect is earned,not a given. I believe in strong discipline but blind obedience is for dogs or people like the North Korean people, brainwashed and terrified by a despot of the worst order into denying themselves and others the humanity we all need to achieve our full potential.
For the record I am about as moral as I can be as a human being and God has nothing to do with it.
My actual Father , the one whose DNA I share, the one who raised me, loved me, taught me not how to be moral but why I should chose that path. He taught me the values of hard work, moral decency, kindness, thoughtfulness towards other, honesty, probity, but allowing me to challenge his teachings as well etc... Sadly he changed when I became a teenager ( fear I suspect and insecurity on his part) but gave me enough of a solid foundation for me to still be extremely grateful to him.
I am no longer in contact with him because though I lost that respect for him when he stopped being a man who respected me. Respect goes both ways. My views no less valid than his or anyone else.
Blind obedience is dangerous because not using your brain and not standing up for what you believe is about the most dangerous thing there is.
Peer pressure is an case in point. Be it in the classroom or the socio cultural pressures most human beings succumb to it is never a good thing. The herd mentality, the desperate need we have for belonging make us all prey to losing our own selves and embracing the worst humanity has to offer. We are ALL guilty of it to a degree but some of us prefer to embrace a slightly less popular path.
I prefer to remain a lonely individual if obedience is what is considered a price to pay for popularity and social acceptance.
We should all live by the dictates of our own conscience and that I believe takes an incredible amount of self discipline and is that hardest choice any of us can make. I do not value "sheep". Anyone can be a member of the herd. Leaving the herd to be yourself is darn sight harder IMO.
I started this thread to see the reactions and thoughts of people and it has been informative though not exactly a surprise.
God is not my Father. With friends like him , who needs enemies...
That's all very well and nice, but it fails to address the issue that there is no evidence of any gods, nor the fact the gods humans have chosen to believe in are malevolent and malicious.
When I was a believer I never really saw many christians at peace and living life to the fullest. They were very concerned about their sinful nature and not meeting up to god's ridiculously high standards.
I totally hear you as my upbringing was decidedly Catholic and full of guilt / confession so there weren't all that many outwardly happy Christians in that lot. But somehow I came out of it with an open mind which in part lead to my perhaps over-simplified scenario. I see celebration in the Psalms, where it tells readers to "enjoy the wife of their youth" etc. so it's not all parables and retribution and proverbs. I question the divine big time and think that if there is a god, he or she won't mind my questioning, having given me the very mind that is doing so.
True there is no proof there is a god. But there is no proof there isn't either. So when someone says "why" one could just as easily say "why not".
Lastly, the "fact the gods humans have chosen to believe in are malevolent and malicious" that you state is nowhere near factual and is as big a jump in logic as the very faith Christians profess.
Pascals wager does not work for me, this one life is enough thank you and no need to exist forever and then some.
Assuming for a moment that any of this is true, I would have many many questions of "where were you when...", that alone is going to keep me out of the fiery pits a long time.
I have made peace with my mortality, and the more I think about it, oblivion does not seem that bad. Actually existing forever even in the good place is rather daunting, more like a ground hog day that never ends.
All intriguing thoughts and interesting perspectives but still, the essence of this discussion may come down to optimism versus pessimism. I was asked by my young daughter if I believed in magic. My first thought was "No. Most of that is smoke and mirrors and slight of hand." I did not say that though as I don't want to stifle her innocence and wonder. And then I thought of why as adults, this innocence and wonder disappears for the most part. I also thought that a view of magic as merely parlor tricks was so limiting in both definition and in terms of imagination. Ultimately, I told her "Yes. I do believe in magic." Then I watched her smile and walk away. Afterwards, I thought of the prospect of parenting and our choice to have children which really wasn't logical. In fact, we did not have children for the longest time because of logic. Too expensive. Too much responsibility. To bring a child into this world...etc. But I realized that my decision to have children was based on the inner belief that mysticism and magic do exist in some form. So far in raising kids, I can see that clearly...at times anyway.
So, do I become a J.O.F. (jaded old fart) and lose innocence and wonder completely and see the world and God as f***ed up? Do I let cynicism over take me and end up sounding like so many crusty old farts? I know...many say realists...another thread topic perhaps? Or do I let the possibilities exist at very least in my head? Pascal's wager be damned. It works for me to leave the possibilities open and not to close them especially in the absence of definitive proof either way.
So when asked if there is a God, and I have no definitive proof there isn't, I say "Why not?" That works for me.
Lastly, the "fact the gods humans have chosen to believe in are malevolent and malicious" that you state is nowhere near factual and is as big a jump in logic as the very faith Christians profess.
Would you like some verses to back up my claim, cos there's plenty of them to go around
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