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All intriguing thoughts and interesting perspectives but still, the essence of this discussion may come down to optimism versus pessimism. I was asked by my young daughter if I believed in magic. My first thought was "No. Most of that is smoke and mirrors and slight of hand." I did not say that though as I don't want to stifle her innocence and wonder. And then I thought of why as adults, this innocence and wonder disappears for the most part. I also thought that a view of magic as merely parlor tricks was so limiting in both definition and in terms of imagination. Ultimately, I told her "Yes. I do believe in magic." Then I watched her smile and walk away. Afterwards, I thought of the prospect of parenting and our choice to have children which really wasn't logical. In fact, we did not have children for the longest time because of logic. Too expensive. Too much responsibility. To bring a child into this world...etc. But I realized that my decision to have children was based on the inner belief that mysticism and magic do exist in some form. So far in raising kids, I can see that clearly...at times anyway.
So, do I become a J.O.F. (jaded old fart) and lose innocence and wonder completely and see the world and God as f***ed up? Do I let cynicism over take me and end up sounding like so many crusty old farts? I know...many say realists...another thread topic perhaps? Or do I let the possibilities exist at very least in my head? Pascal's wager be damned. It works for me to leave the possibilities open and not to close them especially in the absence of definitive proof either way.
So when asked if there is a God, and I have no definitive proof there isn't, I say "Why not?" That works for me.
I don't see growing up and realizing magic is not real as losing your sense of wonder or innocence, it is just what happens ( or is suppose to) when you mature and educate yourself. One does not need to believe in magic or fairy tales to have a sense of wonder. I look at my kids and their imaginations when they play, and I am filled with it. I look at the amazing rocky mountains where I live and wonder about how much force and time created them and I am amazed. There is more amazement and wonder to be had than mythical creatures and magic.
The OP ( ie myself) understands very well the concept of obedience. My Father was in the Marines then the Diplomatic service so I can assure you my life was led under strict rules and discipline of iron was the order of the day. Of course my Father also had enough respect to teach my the "why" of things as well as the "how".
My Father did not assume his ways should be mysterious and that I should blindly made to obey and follow orders. I was taught to think for myself, to challenge ( even his own views, we used to have quite involved debates and intellectual discourses together, on a fairly equal footing even as a child) and to dispute , and never to blindly follow in people's footsteps. Which is why I am an Atheist. He is an Atheist and yet I was encouraged to research all religions, taken to sacred buildings all over the world, given world scriptures to read, a lot of knowledge was thrown my way , I was encouraged to speak to people of many religions and then make my own mind up. I was not patronised and told to simply assent to anything simply because. Rules existed and a logical reason was given for them. Be they rules of courtesy or safety ( my own and others).
Children are not morons.They do need strict discipline and guidelines but unless those are explained and a dialogue is engaged into,a child will have no idea as to why he/she should be doing anything . "Because I told you so" would have never worked for me. I need to understand things myself.
My Father ( at least until I turned 13 and he all of sudden decided to become a tyrant) was open minded and did not assume I was too stupid and ignorant to understand his ways.
Also my Father would have moved heaven and earth to save my life had I ever been in danger. Had I been in danger he would have never stood around and watched , washing his hands of it because some murderers' or rapists' free agency would be infringed, or because Earthquakes and Tsunamis are simply there to "teach us" something.
I understand the concept of discipline , I would argue I am actually one of the most self disciplined person I know in fact. It has in fact led me to being Chronically depressed and suffering from Chronic Fatigue syndrome. I would actually argue it possibly caused my Leukaemia years ago. My body and mind in many ways simply not able to cope with such self inflicted discipline. I think too much , too deeply about things and sometimes the brain and body simply short circuit. Nobody's fault, maybe a little genetic and a little of too much discipline.
Comparing God to a Father is simply intellectually risible. A Father ( a loving one at last) will do EVERYTHING He can to help his children, stop them from suffering, and would simply not stand by whilst his children suffer. Period.
A Father respects his children enough not to treat them like morons and withdraw proof of his existence from him. Sorry but a child is never going to realise he/she has a father if there is no earthly evidence of his existence.
Also I find it almost hilarious that I am supposed to worship something I have NO evidence for whatsoever. Millions of years since some human beings have believed in various deities and I am still waiting for some evidence. Even a shred of it would be welcome. I mean that sincerely. I would be more than happy to put my hands up and admit my mistake so feel free to submit your scientific empirical evidence. I suspect if you have any you shall be a billionaire very soon, with all the movie rights, tv shows, books etc....
A creature so omnipresent he is never seen , so omnipotent he allows the most appalling things from genocide to natural disasters to occur without even the slightest shred of remorse for his creation's suffering and so omniscient he does not even realise that the human brain for some simply does not work on "fluffy feelings" , "beliefs" and vague emotions but needs proof and evidence. After all this astonishing creature created me as I am , a doubting Thomas and yet he does not seem that bothered that people like myself require a little more than a little preaching, and wing and a prayer to hold on to.
Sorry if my post indicates a lack of understanding.
I gather we cannot all achieve the higher consciousness you have obviously achieved, my brain is obviously defective or I am so obtuse that years of sincere research into all things Theology have led me to a big blank wall when it comes to a creator.
Not all of us sadly are blessed with the blind obedience you describe. And that is a good thing. Blind obedience is an abnegation of my humanity, my intellectual capabilities and my human right to think for myself .
I have the rights to ask questions, to dig for the truth and the right to analyse the data I am given as a human being in a logical , rational and reasoned manner. Anything else would be disrespectful to my own good self. And IMO to other human beings to. Call it an intellectual duty.
Respect is earned,not a given. I believe in strong discipline but blind obedience is for dogs or people like the North Korean people, brainwashed and terrified by a despot of the worst order into denying themselves and others the humanity we all need to achieve our full potential.
For the record I am about as moral as I can be as a human being and God has nothing to do with it.
My actual Father , the one whose DNA I share, the one who raised me, loved me, taught me not how to be moral but why I should chose that path. He taught me the values of hard work, moral decency, kindness, thoughtfulness towards other, honesty, probity, but allowing me to challenge his teachings as well etc... Sadly he changed when I became a teenager ( fear I suspect and insecurity on his part) but gave me enough of a solid foundation for me to still be extremely grateful to him.
I am no longer in contact with him because though I lost that respect for him when he stopped being a man who respected me. Respect goes both ways. My views no less valid than his or anyone else.
Blind obedience is dangerous because not using your brain and not standing up for what you believe is about the most dangerous thing there is.
Peer pressure is an case in point. Be it in the classroom or the socio cultural pressures most human beings succumb to it is never a good thing. The herd mentality, the desperate need we have for belonging make us all prey to losing our own selves and embracing the worst humanity has to offer. We are ALL guilty of it to a degree but some of us prefer to embrace a slightly less popular path.
I prefer to remain a lonely individual if obedience is what is considered a price to pay for popularity and social acceptance.
We should all live by the dictates of our own conscience and that I believe takes an incredible amount of self discipline and is that hardest choice any of us can make. I do not value "sheep". Anyone can be a member of the herd. Leaving the herd to be yourself is darn sight harder IMO.
I started this thread to see the reactions and thoughts of people and it has been informative though not exactly a surprise.
God is not my Father. With friends like him , who needs enemies...
I totally concur as far as respect goes having been raised by an "old school" father who stressed the importance of good decision making and many other things that are my foundation. And obedience / sheep mentality is particularly relevant in today's society where we pledge allegiance to slogans and political parties in a very absolute and blind way. There is no tolerance either.
The Christian story may a fairy tale. Then again, it may not be. Lots of us poo poo what we don't know or what we suspect isn't, but I try not to be so definitive.
I too reject the mainstream to a great degree and try to separate from the herd so-to-speak. I also realize that being separate from the herd could make me an easier target for the wolves.
I don't see growing up and realizing magic is not real as losing your sense of wonder or innocence, it is just what happens ( or is suppose to) when you mature and educate yourself. One does not need to believe in magic or fairy tales to have a sense of wonder. I look at my kids and their imaginations when they play, and I am filled with it. I look at the amazing rocky mountains where I live and wonder about how much force and time created them and I am amazed. There is more amazement and wonder to be had than mythical creatures and magic.
Really. I agree in almost every sense. But I just differ in the degree of things and I have not completely given up on the idea of magic. Of course, my definition of magic has been expanded beyond what David Copperfield does. Beyond unicorns and other classic fairy tale imagry. Beyond what maybe even I can comprehend. But then I realize that there is so much more I don't know than waht I do know.
The only difference between god belief and insanity is the marketing.
"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
2 Kings 2.
Exodus 12:29-30 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."
I Chronicles 21:14 "So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men."
I Samuel 6:19 "And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."
I Samuel 15:2-3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." Isaiah 13:15-16 "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."
Ezekiel 9:5-6 "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: ..."
Exodus 32:27 "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."
Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."
Numbers 15:32-36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."
P.S. I'll be standing by for the Bible apologetics.
The verses were all good examples of the complexities /mysteries in the Bible. But I gotta say, I am cracking up at the cartoon and caption. Total irreverence and being Irish, I love that.
Been musing about my move to atheism and reflecting on the past life, I am only 53 but even Ptsum posted something similar that as you get older, the threat of your mortality wanes.
My interest in religion resurfaced in my early 30's with my 1st child and apart from other reasons that defy the logic I had before and then after, the idea of procreation and caring of a child is an emotional experience. In fact my late dad said if I do not believe in god now then... can't remember the rest.
My kids are all adults now and the emotional side went through all the phases.
One would expect that as one nears the end of ones natural life that there would be more anxiety of mortality, but for me the inverse is true. My parents adapted to after the passing of their parents and so too have I after their passing, life goes on regardless.
Nothing I could imagine makes me want any immortality.
The fear of death is ingrained into kids bedtime prayers.
Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to KEEP; if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
Death IMO will be no different to deep sleep and there is no fear of sleep when you are an adult, these fears by then have been replaced by others.
Really. I agree in almost every sense. But I just differ in the degree of things and I have not completely given up on the idea of magic. Of course, my definition of magic has been expanded beyond what David Copperfield does. Beyond unicorns and other classic fairy tale imagry. Beyond what maybe even I can comprehend. But then I realize that there is so much more I don't know than waht I do know.
I gave up on magic, when I realized it just doesn't happen, I kind of always knew the TV type magicians were not real. I never believed in unicorns and the such. I had always hoped Harry Potter type magic was real, but no such luck. I guess some things could be perceived as magical, like rainbows and the Northern lights, but those too have a real explanation. So I find Wonder in other things.
Would you like some verses to back up my claim, cos there's plenty of them to go around
You are quoting from a book you don't believe in so your "factual claims" are questionable at best. And BTW, I have read much of the Bible at some time in my life. I don't understand, or even pretend to understand, the half of it.
I gave up on magic, when I realized it just doesn't happen, I kind of always knew the TV type magicians were not real. I never believed in unicorns and the such. I had always hoped Harry Potter type magic was real, but no such luck. I guess some things could be perceived as magical, like rainbows and the Northern lights, but those too have a real explanation. So I find Wonder in other things.
It's all good. There is so much mystery out there starting with the basic question of why we are here. I just try not to limit any of it by actively closing it off. This life is an adventure and I am trying to maximize that part of it.
Been musing about my move to atheism and reflecting on the past life, I am only 53 but even Ptsum posted something similar that as you get older, the threat of your mortality wanes.
My interest in religion resurfaced in my early 30's with my 1st child and apart from other reasons that defy the logic I had before and then after, the idea of procreation and caring of a child is an emotional experience. In fact my late dad said if I do not believe in god now then... can't remember the rest.
My kids are all adults now and the emotional side went through all the phases.
One would expect that as one nears the end of ones natural life that there would be more anxiety of mortality, but for me the inverse is true. My parents adapted to after the passing of their parents and so too have I after their passing, life goes on regardless.
Nothing I could imagine makes me want any immortality.
The fear of death is ingrained into kids bedtime prayers.
Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to KEEP; if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
Death IMO will be no different to deep sleep and there is no fear of sleep when you are an adult, these fears by then have been replaced by others.
You sound very grounded and there is much to be said for that. And fear...yes it is part of religion. It is also part of the effect of daily news watching, IMO. Maybe a device by those in power keep us masses under control. There is a lot of superstition and such that shapes our lives no doubt. Christianity may very well be a part of that. I myself do not know the answer to that.
It's all good. There is so much mystery out there starting with the basic question of why we are here. I just try not to limit any of it by actively closing it off. This life is an adventure and I am trying to maximize that part of it.
Life is an adventure and you only get one. That's why I love education, to fill my mind and explore new things. I am even changing my career and I am back at school, again the more I learn, the more I want to know. Really doesn't ruin anything for me, sometimes it makes it more interesting. But I get where you are coming from.
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