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It is clear we disagree. You want to suggest people who have abortions are less caring or loving than people who do not in some way. I am pointing out that aside from declaring that to be so there is no actual reasons on offer to think that way.
There you go with your ubiquitous "there is no reason on offer" mantra ignoring any and all such offers of reasons. Obtuseness is no basis for blanket dismissals.
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I too have known many people who have chosen abortion and they are just as loving and caring as any other person I have ever met. It is also a difficult decision for many to make percisely because they are caring and loving people. Not to mention Abortion is a very emotive issue at the best of times.
I also know such people . . . but at the time of the decisionthey were definitely NOT responding with a "gentle agape loving heart." Such a decision could not be made if it were otherwise. Clearly other circumstances and considerations dominated the decision. I have never disputed that nor the potential gravity of any of them.[quote]
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There you go with your ubiquitous "there is no reason on offer" mantra ignoring any and all such offers of reasons.
^But I can not ignore what is not there. You did not give any reasons. You are just telling us that in your mind that people who engage in abortion are somehow less loving or caring or gentle than others. You have repeated this a few times and yet I see no reason on offer to think you are correct. You personally think that of those people - fine - but you are not explaining the thinking behind that position well - or even at all.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Such a decision could not be made if it were otherwise.
Says you. Another assertion. Why could it not? Because you say so? Again I know people who have made this decision and they are - were - and continue to be loving, kind and gentle people. Your assertions might please you on paper but they do not appear to map to reality in any way.
I am not attacking any people here I am attacking a single claim that was made about abortion on a thread about abortion. No one is forcing you to reply to me at all that I know of. However if you reply to me have I not the right to reply to you in kind? What gives you the right to stop me replying but continue to do so yourself? If you object to my words then simply do not reply to them and the conversation ends.
This is a thread about abortion and I am replying to the assertion made on the thread that people who have abortions are some how less loving or gentle than people who do not. I think this is an unfair assertion to make and it in no way seems to map to the reality of the people I and others have experience of.
Further I have attacked nothing but that assertion. I have in no way attacked YOU despite your use of language like "Obtuseness", "attacks", "harrasement", "indignant rantings", "BS", "your not so gentle and not so agape loving heart", "John Alden", "indignant rigamarole", and questioning of my mental faculties and reasoning abilities. Not to mention attempts to silence me by threatening me with moderators and TOS breaches. Despite all this I have stayed polite, avoided ad hominem and have attacked no person but just one single claim made on the thread.
I said we just disagree . . . to pursue it is off topic which is: "Are only religious people opposed to abortion?" . . . NOT "Do those who have abortions have loving hearts!" That is my opinion and not a target for your continued assault.
Clearly you have your opinion and I have mine. My own opinion is that this is not just baseless but unfair and even insulting to those who have had abortions and demeaning them in a way that is as disingenuous as it is innacurate.
No, not only religious people are opposed to abortion. Many atheists are too. At least one of the "big Four" of the so called "New Atheists" was against it for example. One can speculate as to whether that 25% holds for the greater community. I imagine also that atheists are in no way immune to propoganda tricks levelled against people who have abortions or their characters and as such are just as likely to be converted by such tricks into being anti abortion.
One good question to anyone who wants to know if only the religious are opposed to abortion would be to ask them why they would expect it to be so.
The DNA involved would beg to differ with you. Human is human . . . lawyerly-like redefinitions, euphemistic medical jargon, and other intellectual weasling will never alter that fundamental reality. I live in the real world . . . not a fabricated verbal jungle designed to obscure it. The only debatable status is personhood . . . which is conveyed by society at birth and protected by society thereafter. It is personhood that the unborn child lacks which is why legal protections and considerations do not apply. The child's mother is the sole arbiter of its fate.I do not lack empathy and I cannot imagine what it must take to motivate a woman to terminate her own offspring. I fully recognize that not everyone has fully developed "gentle agape loving hearts" for a myriad of reasons . . . but facing that reality is never crass . . . distorting or disguising it IS.
While you cannot imagine what that woman goes through, you have no problem condemning her decision. You even refer to "offspring," although it may or may not have developed into an offspring. It may have developed into a half formed fetus and died. Your use of "offspring" seems to me to be a "hot button" word like some use "baby killing" or "murder" in order to stir emotions about the issue which you yourself said you cannot understand. That's inherently unfair.
While you cannot imagine what that woman goes through, you have no problem condemning her decision. You even refer to "offspring," although it may or may not have developed into an offspring. It may have developed into a half formed fetus and died. Your use of "offspring" seems to me to be a "hot button" word like some use "baby killing" or "murder" in order to stir emotions about the issue which you yourself said you cannot understand. That's inherently unfair.
I have immense sympathy for any woman who felt compelled to make such a decision . . . and it is and must remain her decision. But there are other reasons than religion to oppose it . . . even though it is and should remain a legal choice. I condemn no one. I am not trying to stir any emotions. I simply have an opinion about the state of mind that must exist to choose such a destructive option. I do not have to justify my opinions to hold them . . . and the OP is NOT about my opinion. I have repeatedly had to say that it is a point of genuine disagreement . . . but it is opinion and I would appreciate not being harassed about it. It is off topic.
This does not contribute anything to the argument. because it h as been historically proven false over and over again as an expression of man's nature. Humans have, through the entire course of humanity, considered humans to be expendable in certain circumstances. Most pro-lifers have no real problem with killing Asians for the crime of merely defending their homeland against foreign aggression, and quite a few actually favor an increase in the use of capital punishment. In fact, a few have even been heard to propose executing abortionists, who are usually humans that they are quick to exempt.
As an atheist, I don't believe people are opposed to abortion strictly because of religious beliefs, although, I think it's a big part of it. Some people believe that a life, no matter how insignificant to some, is worthy of legal protection. I personally, as a feminist, don't believe that males, or the government for that matter, have a right to dictate what a woman should, or should not do with her body. I think the rights of women in any country, dictate the direction of that country. The more rights women have, the better off that country is. So, I understand that a fetus (or an embryo) meets the biological definition of a life, but that doesn't mean that it's life trumps the life of the existing, living, breathing, woman. For what it's worth, there's my opinion.
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