Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Raison...Money-Power-and the knowledge of how to best manipulate/exploit people to get it...that is at the root of much of organized religion.
Even today...Offer people money to blow themselves up on a suicide bombing mission, and they'd tell you all the money in the world isn't enough. Ask them to do it as a martyr for their God...and they beg for the opportunity. The FALSE knowledge that it will please some vengeful God...influences and motivates them.
Walk into a christian church in America and ask that question. The FBI would be called on you in a sec.
If you give 100 atheist and 100 spiritual people the same book, then test them on it, the outcome will be about the same. Atheists are no smarter than spiritual people.
Actually, that's not true. We gave all the atheists The Bible ... and look how poorly they've performed on that test.
Actually, that's not true. We gave all the atheists The Bible ... and look how poorly they've performed on that test.
Actually, researchers have shown that atheists know more about religion that believers do. U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life (http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx - broken link)
And I bet that if you gave the Bible to atheists and Christians and told them that they would be tested on it, they would perform about the same on average, with some doing well and some doing poorly in both groups.
Since I never said you can't measure the mind or digestion this question makes no sense. I said you can't measure a pound of it, just like you can't measure out a foot of blue and show it to me or measure the sound of orange. Those kind of questions are a category error.
Try addressing what I actually said and stay on topic.
And how do you physically test the mind, without it's host?
Quote:
Yep, I agree 100%. We just have different ideas about the implications of this problem.
I am ok with that.
Quote:
I thought your point was that because we couldn't do something now it must mean there's something supernatural about it. Seems like you're changing gears now.
Anyway, mere plausibility is a very low standard of proof - hopefully you're not suggesting that "not impossible" is evidence in any way.
Why do you always assume I have said something? I am on the side of science, I am all for it. But, I know that 100 years ago, science was nothing like it was today. Just like 100 years from now, science will be nothing like it is today.
Science is discovery. Religion is faith. They have no connecting point. They are actually two separate subjects.
It's like science trying to test what an artist was feeling when he painted a picture, and all they have is the picture. Or science trying to test the object in the painting itself. Just because science can't study the emotions of the artist, doesn't mean their is no emotion in the painting.
Quote:
Sounds like you're just redefining the natural universe to be god. That's great, but we already have a perfectly good word for everything - it's "everything".
The funny thing is, my theory is almost backed by science. It's called matter, the energy that makes up the universe.
Quote:
Anyway, how do you plan to test your idea? What evidence would show that this idea is right, and more importantly, what evidence would show it wrong?
[/quote]
Disprove matter, energy, light, sound, life on earth, the whole universe and you basically disprove my theoretical spiritual belief.
Walk into a christian church in America and ask that question. The FBI would be called on you in a sec.
I'm not limiting the power/influence of religion to just America. I'm assessing it worldwide, and for all time.
That the FBI in America would be called on someone...does not negate the REALITY that people in the world DO blow themselves up in suicide bombing missions due to the influence of their religion. Some did it this week, some did it last week, and some will do it next week.
The main point I'm trying to make with all this, is that...It doesn't matter if every aspect of religion can be "empirically proven"...when you have 98% of all the people that have ever lived believing in something, the power/influence of it is incredible.
All the "prove this" and "prove that" is just a bunch of posturing...whether it's all "objective fact" or not is inconsequential, except for the sake of argument.
What can be "proven" doesn't mean squat...if it is subscribed to strongly enough, or by enough people...the REAL EFFECT is all the same, "factual" or not. If people are looking for REALITY...THAT'S it.
The 'real effect' may be the same, but if it has a weak foundation, that matters to me. I am well aware that theism is the majority opinion. But the search for the way things really are, irrespective of popularity, is not just 'posturing'. Whether something is factual or not is not 'inconsequential', especially when its effects can be so widespread.
Even as a believer in God, I don't dare argue with atheists. I know I'll never win the argument. I just believe--period. I can't use logic to debate atheists because atheists have a lock on the logic part of the argument. Atheists are right about the onus being on the believers to prove there's a God. Sorry believers, they're right. Don't even try to get around that argument. You can't win, so don't try. Just believe--it's called faith. There are no bonus marks for debating something that's based on faith.
You are all putting the cart before the horse. God's ways are not man's ways; God has ordained that faith comes first, not empirical proof....once faith is established, whether based on creation, science, history, providence, or simply personal conscience, then God will prove Himself to that person. The proof is personal, and varies for each individual. But it is as real as a mathematical equation... something I would accept as sure evidence may not satisfy others, Jesus Himself saying that for some even a person being raised from the dead would not be enough. (I have received enough confirmations of the love, compassion, personal caring nature of God to fill a book), but that is where faith develops into a relationship. Faith is no longer simply a 'belief', but over time, as both parties "get to know one another" becomes an assurance, a sure hope and confidence and trust in God because God has revealed Himself to the believer in such a way that doubt is removed.
You are all putting the cart before the horse. God's ways are not man's ways; God has ordained that faith comes first, not empirical proof....once faith is established, whether based on creation, science, history, providence, or simply personal conscience, then God will prove Himself to that person. The proof is personal, and varies for each individual. But it is as real as a mathematical equation... something I would accept as sure evidence may not satisfy others, Jesus Himself saying that for some even a person being raised from the dead would not be enough. (I have received enough confirmations of the love, compassion, personal caring nature of God to fill a book), but that is where faith develops into a relationship. Faith is no longer simply a 'belief', but over time, as both parties "get to know one another" becomes an assurance, a sure hope and confidence and trust in God because God has revealed Himself to the believer in such a way that doubt is removed.
Man cannot have a true faith in god without spiritual understanding. And who is responsible for granting this understanding? God....via the holy spirit. Those who are dead in sin are not able to understand as they are "spiritually discerned."
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
1 Cor 2:14 ”But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Jesus died for the "believers". And who exactly are the believers? Those whom god has chosen to grant belief/understanding to.
Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scriptures imprisoned all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Philippians 1:29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf
John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Romans 9:11 For being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who calls,
Rom. 8:30, "and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Hebrews 9:15 (New International Version) 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
