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You just don't get it. You are correct . . . Belief is NOT a choice . . . so when it exists there is nothing to be done about it. If someone has a choice between two or more alternatives (or can change their mind about them) . . . they do NOT really BELIEVE ANY of them. They may choose to intellectually accept one or the other and claim belief . . . but there is no real BELIEF involved. True belief is NOT a choice . . . but it does exist separate from intellectual acceptance of alternatives. I KNOW there must be things you truly believe (regardless HOW you came to believe it or what evidence was involved). I DEFY you to CHOOSE not to believe them.
It is a choice to some extent.
You can choose to question your beliefs, to truly measure them against evidence and to actually analyse the data. You can look at how myths came about, you can think about whether what you see or hear from pastors and preachers is actually real or whether it's subtle brainwashing.
If you choose to really question your belief system you can change what you hold as the truth.
We as humans don't bother doing much analysis about anything. That is why we hold dear to outdated belief systems and that is why we choose to stick with the dogma we know.
One can't simply change overnight, however I know from experience that over time, our mind can evolve and accept new ideas and ultimately a whole new state of mind.
I have experienced a shift to atheism through this very method.
Very few try to convert anyone? Where do you live? On the moon? In the USA alone six million Mormons are actively recruiting along with over a million JWs...The Anglican church actively recruits children. The very meaning of the word evangelize is "to advocate a cause with the object of making converts."
By the way, I already know the spiritual truth.
As of July 2009 the U.S population was 307,006,550.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has only 5,974,041 members old enough to report. I know for a fact that not all Mormons go out looking for converts.
The catholic church, 68,115,001 members.
Southern baptists, 16,228,438 members
Methodists, 7,853,987 members
About 34,000,000 people claim no religion, 6,489,000 claim Judaism, 2,500,000 claim Islam, and yadda, yadda, yadda. The point is of the 307 million plus people in the us very few people are out there spreading their religion looking for converts.
I will need empirical proof for those other numbers. And for evangelists, that is their religion.
Keep tossing out the unproven facts and strawman arguements, this is getting fun.
I agree that something does not have to be "true" to be considered (majority) rule. So what are you talking about here in post #59 when you state the following:?
What "burden of proof" is needed for NOT believing that which may or may not be true?
I can just substitute the following using your quote:
"Jesus is NOT God" has been the "Worldwide Standard" for thousands of years...that IS a fact...an objective fact...NOT an "opinion". That you are one of the small minority that dissents, doesn't change that FACT.
In the face of a long standing "Standard Concept"...the "Burden of Proof" is on the opposing concept.
THAT was the point of the post...and the issue I was addressing.
As usual...the OBJECTIVE FACT that non-christians have always overwhelmingly dominated christians gets a christian all bolloxed up
YOU are the one with limiting "God Exists" to Christianity...I NEVER said that.
I said that it was an "objective fact" that "Theism has always overwhelmingly dominated Atheism".
I assumed everyone knew "Theism" isn't limited to Christianity. I'm sure everyone did...except you, obviously.
I said "God Exists" has been the "Worldwide Standard"...and that would be ANYTHING ever perceived as "God".
You are getting hung up on the most prolific of all the theologies...Christianity. And though it is very impressive in it's influence, I wasn't limiting "God" to just "Biblegod".
When I said "God Exists"...I meant every incarnation and concept of "God" there has ever been. As opposed to the Atheist concept of "No God(s) What-so-Ever"...a concept that has less influence than FSM or IPUs.
Heeeeeeey...THERE'S an idea!!! Since the Atheists invented FSM and IPUs...you should just go with them! They'll have waaaaaaay more "mojo" than Atheism ever will! LOL!
So your mind is irrelevant. Good to know you think that...wait, I guess according to you, you don't think as it doesn't reside in the physical realm.
Nope, I just disagree that they're mystical immaterial things floating around in the ether. They're a normal physical process of the brain, kind of like digestion is a normal physical process of the stomach. They both have measurable physical effects even though we can't pick up and measure out a pound of mind or digestion.
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Science says they exist, therefor they must exist, right? OR are you questioning science too now?
Science says the mind can't possibly be explained as a physical process? References to peer reviewed publications, please.
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Ah, see we can build a human lung, heart, and almost every other organ in the human body. The only one we cannot replicate is the brain and mind.
They know what a brain is and could probably make one, add the brain fluid(various chemicals) and even put the electrical response in there. They could have all the makings of an artificial human brain. But, wait if it would be this easy they would have done it.
So it's not easy and we can't do it now. Doesn't mean it's impossible. What's your point, exactly?
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The mind is much more than electrical responses, chemicals and matter. The mind does not have a physical aspect to it. Science can't create it.
This doesn't follow. It's not easy to build a modern computer. Therefore it's more than silicon, copper and electrical responses? Somehow I don't see this line of thinking as convincing. It's just another variety of the god of the gaps - poking and prodding to stuff magical beliefs into the current gaps in our knowledge. That's never been a particularly successful approach in the past and I don't see the prospects getting any better any time soon.
Now how about answering my question - do gods interact with the natural universe, or are the totally absent from it?
This is false. Not many, very few actually go out and try to convert anyone.
Your good book commands you to spread the word.
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You cannot empirically prove this claim.
You...
Demanding "empirical evidence."
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The word many would cause people to think the majority. The correct term is few or some.
Many is not necessarily most. Don't be easily diverted to false conclusions.
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The big religions do not make up or speak for all religions or spiritualists. I say believe what you want to believe. I believe that when a person is ready to find the spiritual truth they will find it on their own and if they seek guidance, I am gladly here to offer what I can, if asked.
Not the way I see it...I believe what the evidence shows me to be true..Not a choice at all.
For everything else all I have is my opinion which may or may not be correct. Let's be fair, I admit that I might be wrong about the non existence of god, So I don't see why a theist could not also admit the possibility of being mistaken about the existence of god....Is the indoctrination so strong that he can't? I find that somewhat amazing and irrational.
Evidence! What evidence? It better be empirical...
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