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The believers have nothing (no proof) to offer except the usual threats of hell.
Actually, believers have so much to offer as proof of God's existence that God tells us you unbelievers really have no excuse.
NASB
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Falling away from faith is just one of the signs of the times. you really can't see that? make an effort to read at least the NT and the book of revelation, everything will be fulfilled and you can't change it. no wonder Jesus said, for many his coming would be like a thief in the night. Like a theif in the night!
Actually I earned a degree in Anthropology that involved heavy study of several different religions. I have read the entire Bible (both in English and Spanish, as well as many various religious texts from many different religions) and don't see the grave warnings you seem to see.
Instead I see manipulation by religious leaders who were/are concerned with keeping their sheep in the fold.
It is essentially the same as me telling my children not to stray too far from me in a public place or "bad guys" will get them...
...The difference is that religious institutions want to keep you as one of "god's children" permanently for their own use, instead of letting you grow up.
In fairness to the others I think part of the hostility, on the first page or so, is the tone of the OP and where the thread started. This "RedJacket" person did the first post with, "Religion has made many shysters very rich. Affinity scams are a big and profitable business" which seems a bit provocative a thing to say at the Christian board as that's where s/he put it. It was later moved, but it does kind of feel like an attempt at "proselytism" which is supposed to be banned on the atheist equivalent to the Christian board. Not that this really justifies the hostility, and condemning people to Hell is actually a sin I believe, but it does explain a bit of the over-the-top reaction. The initial poster at least seemed to be trying to "use Hawking as a weapon."
If I started a thread at "Atheism and Agnosticism" with a pro-deity statement by the late Martin Gardner that would, understandably I think, get some criticism. (I picked Martin Gardner as he called himself a "philosophical theist", sometimes classed as deist, who was generally a skeptic and who believed in "A God" rather than the God of any specific religion. So even though he's dead he's one the closest to getting just the God/No-God issue rather than a specific religion.) None would have said he was damned, obviously, but possibly someone would have called him a fool. I could at least see it.
Okay - the hostility makes a little more sense. However, I will forever be baffled by the knee jerk reaction of - You're going to burn forever in Hell!!! I feel like you have to have a lot of anger and hatred to say that to anyone or about anyone. It's just never seemed like a "Christian" thing to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind
You're going to find out that there is a God in heaven! everyone will! if you are fortunate enough to repent in your life before you die, it will be a wonderful experience for you! if you do not repent before you leave this life, well, you will be sorry! - just as those who died thinking there was no God... so, yes, every single one of you will know He exists someday (hopefully before you leave), no doubt! what matters is, will you die as an unbeliever or a born-again christian!
Did you read my post - or just that one line that someone else quoted to prove a different point? Please read my entire post before you quote me. I said that this is not what I think. I would never tell someone that. I would never tell someone that they will be sorry when they find out that they are wrong. Just because I believe they are wrong, it doesn't mean that they are wrong. I could be wrong. I know that. I don't have all the answers and don't claim to. And I would never use my beliefs to threaten someone.
Great - another person telling me I'm going to Hell. It's worked so well before. Please - listen to what you are telling people. It's actually a very horrible thing to say to someone. Does anyone respond well to threats? I don't. I'm not threatening you - I would appreciate the same respect.
Actually, believers have so much to offer as proof of God's existence that God tells us you unbelievers really have no excuse.
NASB
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
How is this proof? Someone wrote it in a book, and that makes it proof?
Do you understand what "proof" is? It's more than a simple fiat passed down from sand-dwellers.
Do you want to know what else is said in that book? Women should submit to their husbands for all of their needs, God condemned children to death, and working on a Saturday is punishable by death.
How is this proof? Someone wrote it in a book, and that makes it proof?
Do you understand what "proof" is? It's more than a simple fiat passed down from sand-dwellers.
For those who can't see past their.........
The Book says that the Universe, the laws of nature, mathematics the trees and the mountains contain evidence of God. But some refuse to see the evidence and attribute things like mathematics to mere chance.
I don't believe in heaven, at least not in the Christian way, but I would put zero weight on what Hawking thinks on the matter. High IQ has nothing to do with whether or not there is a heaven. Better to listen to spiritual leaders on this matter who have devoted their life to the issue. Would you listen to the Pope if he said there is no such thing as a black hole?
Why do spiritual leaders have the monopoly on this knowledge? All they have to follow is one stinking book. In order to justify their employment, theologians come up with as many different interpretations of it as possible. This doesn't mean they are more "spiritual" than anyone else. Just means they're more fanatical about that one book.
Scientists like Hawking study about 1,000 books to come to their conclusions.
To me, the real difference between science and religion is lazyness. Those who would put all their stock in religion are lazy. Science, meanwhile, never rests.
The Book says that the Universe, the laws of nature, mathematics the trees and the mountains contain evidence of God. But some refuse to see the evidence and attribute things like mathematics to mere chance.
No one who believes in evolution or the geological explanations for the formation of earth believe it has anything to do with chance.
The least you can do while smearing one point of view is learn something about that point of view. I was raised Baptist, and had the bible force-fed to me for nearly 20 years. I understand the Christian viewpoint on the beginnings of earth clearly. It's decidedly childish and naiive as compared to the more exciting, nuanced, sophisticated scientific explanations.
"God created heavens and the earth." How indescribably boring. Read a little on how the earth, moon, oceans and continents were formed. Read about how bacteria formed from single-celled organisms, evolved all kinds of traits through billions of years of natural selection, and then come tell me that somehow this explanation is more boring and trite than some grand old bearded man "saying it's so". You have no idea what you're missing when you ignore science.
I don't believe in heaven, at least not in the Christian way, but I would put zero weight on what Hawking thinks on the matter. High IQ has nothing to do with whether or not there is a heaven. Better to listen to spiritual leaders on this matter who have devoted their life to the issue. Would you listen to the Pope if he said there is no such thing as a black hole?
I put more weight on the thinking of respected scientists than on spiritual leaders who have wasted their lives on a delusion which they were likely to have been indoctrinated into believing. Science can justify and test its results, whereas spiritual leaders can't. Speculation based on false and unprovable premises only yields nonsense results in turn. Religion and faith are very likely the unproductive byproduct of what was once a useful trait that evolved through natural selection, much like a moth's fatal attraction to a candle flame.
If you spoke to people a few years ago about dark matter, dark energy, or more than nine planets in our solar system they would have said you were suffering from delusions. Actually, the size of the observable universe in comparison to the unobservable portion has been compared with an atom in relation to our visible universe. In short, there is more that we don't detect than what we do detect. That being the case, it comes across as rather presumptuous for short sited perceptually handicapped humans to be making broad over-generalizations about all existence. It's called the over-generalization fallacy based on unrepresentative sample. Look it up! Or if you already know it then apply it to your illogical defective conclusions.
BTW
There are hundreds of scientists who were respected and whose beliefs and pompous declarations have proven to be pure drivel. So respect is no guarantee of truth. Especially if those giving the respect have a tendency to be gullible.
The bible has nothing to offer the science community. It has so many holes in it a Universe could drop through. To then turn around and use that same bible to prove anything is erroneous at best.
If it can't get even simple stuff right, how on earth can it address complicated issues like an afterlife? It can't. The biblical authors were not even original, they stole localised belief systems and used them.
Are people so blind they cannot even see the errors, are people so sheep-like they can't analyse these texts for themselves?
Obviously the answer is Yes considering most of the responses from the religious people here.
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