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In short, a city buys land for over a million dollars, then tries to transfer it to a Catholic high school for the price of $1. But, they are (rightfully) blocked by some local citizens who filed suit, and whose suit was upheld by the court.
Unfortunately, no. "Unseparation" of Church and State will exist as long as religion continues to be a corrupting force in politics. It was in 1790 and it is in 2011.
Unfortunately, no. "Unseparation" of Church and State will exist as long as religion continues to be a corrupting force in politics. It was in 1790 and it is in 2011.
Of course I'm not saying that it's all better now; I'm simply pointing out that cases like this are becoming more common. Ten or fifteen years ago, this wouldn't have been blocked, and the very rich Catholic church would have gotten an expensive piece of land for free. I think we're near or at the tipping point, where things will gradually keep getting better, until we manage (in general) to keep things like this from happening at all.
In short, a city buys land for over a million dollars, then tries to transfer it to a Catholic high school for the price of $1. But, they are (rightfully) blocked by some local citizens who filed suit, and whose suit was upheld by the court.
Grass-roots in action-aware and involved. Grass-roots activist you rock! Glad they caught it.
Check your property taxes people! Follow the money!
A million+, 1.2 million to be exact! Sheesk!
Of course I'm not saying that it's all better now; I'm simply pointing out that cases like this are becoming more common. Ten or fifteen years ago, this wouldn't have been blocked, and the very rich Catholic church would have gotten an expensive piece of land for free. I think we're near or at the tipping point, where things will gradually keep getting better, until we manage (in general) to keep things like this from happening at all.
It has gotten a little better recently MC...but that is about to change.
I've been saying this all along.
The religious are a vast majority...in a nation that operates by the rule of the vote of the most people, or reps thereof.
If (more like, "when") they decide to "organize and act"...they will be able to vote anyone into office they want...pass any legislation they want...even put together the votes to change the Constitution. And with a 75-80% majority...they have only to decide to take action to do it.
They have been "laying low" for quite a while, because they haven't felt truly threatened...but it's obvious that is no longer the case.
The nest of bees will typically leave you alone...unless you keep poking at it...and it's better to leave big, mean sleeping dogs to just lay there, even if you don't like the dog. You are going to like the attacking bees, or the awake and angry dog, much less.
And that is now what you almost have.
The public taunting, mocking, and opposition has started to get to them, and they've been organizing in significant numbers as of late.
Just watch the next election...and what follows...you'll see.
Keep "pushing it", and it will play out the way it's always played out in history when "push came to shove" relative to this matter.
It has gotten a little better recently MC...but that is about to change.
I've been saying this all along.
The religious are a vast majority...in a nation that operates by the rule of the vote of the most people, or reps thereof.
If (more like, "when") they decide to "organize and act"...they will be able to vote anyone into office they want...pass any legislation they want...even put together the votes to change the Constitution. And with a 75-80% majority...they have only to decide to take action to do it.
They have been "laying low" for quite a while, because they haven't felt truly threatened...but it's obvious that is no longer the case.
The nest of bees will typically leave you alone...unless you keep poking at it...and it's better to leave big, mean sleeping dogs to just lay there, even if you don't like the dog. You are going to like the attacking bees, or the awake and angry dog, much less.
And that is now what you almost have.
The public taunting, mocking, and opposition has started to get to them, and they've been organizing in significant numbers as of late.
Just watch the next election...and what follows...you'll see.
Keep "pushing it", and it will play out the way it's always played out in history when "push came to shove" relative to this matter.
A very thoughtful assessment.
Dare I suggest that the Founders actually understood that the world views of the majority would, by necessity, influence the world views of the government. In other words, those in the majority would be in a position to create laws (imposition) comporting to their world view.
The religious are a vast majority...in a nation that operates by the rule of the vote of the most people, or reps thereof.
The rule you speak of is in the US Constitution, designed to protect the majority from the whims of the majority. You seem to think it was designed to push the whim of the majority.
Quote:
Just watch the next election...and what follows...you'll see.
We don’t need to watch the effects of corruption in the future. We have ample evidence from the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Dare I suggest that the Founders actually understood that the world views of the majority would, by necessity, influence the world views of the government. In other words, those in the majority would be in a position to create laws (imposition) comporting to their world view.
And that understanding led them to institute a separation of church and state. They were well aware of the corrupting effects of religion and the whims of the majority.
Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
- James Madison, 1820
Unfortunately, no. "Unseparation" of Church and State will exist as long as religion continues to be a corrupting force in politics. It was in 1790 and it is in 2011.
Define " corrupting", is it anything that you do not agree with?
Define " corrupting", is it anything that you do not agree with?
I hope you're simply being facetious about the need to define "corruption". I don't agree with corruption. You? Now the realism of one of the most significant of Founders:
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others.
- James Madison
"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity"
- James Madison
"Notwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, and the full establishment of it in some parts of our country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Government and Religion neither can be duly supported. Such, indeed, is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded against. And in a Government of opinion like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance."
- James Madison
"Union of religious sentiments begets a surprising confidence and ecclesiastical establishments tend to grate ignorance and corruption all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects"
- James Madison
It has gotten a little better recently MC...but that is about to change.
I've been saying this all along.
The religious are a vast majority...in a nation that operates by the rule of the vote of the most people, or reps thereof.
If (more like, "when") they decide to "organize and act"...they will be able to vote anyone into office they want...pass any legislation they want...even put together the votes to change the Constitution. And with a 75-80% majority...they have only to decide to take action to do it.
They have been "laying low" for quite a while, because they haven't felt truly threatened...but it's obvious that is no longer the case.
The nest of bees will typically leave you alone...unless you keep poking at it...and it's better to leave big, mean sleeping dogs to just lay there, even if you don't like the dog. You are going to like the attacking bees, or the awake and angry dog, much less.
And that is now what you almost have.
The public taunting, mocking, and opposition has started to get to them, and they've been organizing in significant numbers as of late.
Just watch the next election...and what follows...you'll see. Keep "pushing it", and it will play out the way it's always played out in history when "push came to shove" relative to this matter.
Utter flight of fantasy! Case in point - if you guys were that powerful, you would have been able to at least make abortion (aka murder in some circles) illegal. But, hope is a good thing - keep dreaming. You are wrong to assume 75-80% of the people think like you.
Let me know when you can arrest me in the name of the lord and not by the power given by the constitution. Until that day, you are in fantasy land.
...and the church-state wall is not about to be knocked down.
Last edited by calmdude; 09-08-2011 at 10:00 AM..
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