FILL IN THE BLANK: It's okay to kill a baby in the womb when ________ (believers, religion)
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Killing an innocent person on purpose is always murder (if an unborn baby is defined as a person having rights as such, it's obviously innocent and not involved in any crime -in the woman's rape, in this case-).
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Murder requires a certain frame of mind. A woman, terminating a pregnancy because she was raped, is not focused on the destruction of the life inside her, she is focused on the undoing of the trauma done to her. Is the baby an innocent victim? Yes, but not of the mothers decision, the baby is the victim of the one who raped the woman. All that aside, like SuperSoul has point out numerous times, the # of abortions that are done for reasons other than the mother simply not wanting to be pregnant are in the single digit percentages.
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Murder requires a certain frame of mind. A woman, terminating a pregnancy because she was raped, is not focused on the destruction of the life inside her, she is focused on the undoing of the trauma done to her. Is the baby an innocent victim? Yes, but not of the mothers decision, the baby is the victim of the one who raped the woman. All that aside, like SuperSoul has point out numerous times, the # of abortions that are done for reasons other than the mother simply not wanting to be pregnant are in the single digit percentages.
Hm I wasn't giving my opinion on what constitutes murder. It's murder as defined by the law. If the fetus is murdered if aborted because the woman didn't feel like becoming a mother, it is murdered if aborted because the woman had been raped.
If you purposefully kill me to "undo" something wrong done by someone else (not by me), you're being a murderer. There's no way around this.
The only frame of mind that murder requires is purpose/aforethought/premeditation (which, I think, constitutes "malice").*
* Purpose/aforethought/premeditation to cause death, not to have sex. Of course.
I believe the majority are under the opinion it is wrong to kill a baby.
The issue here is defining a baby. I doubt if we will come to agreement. About all we can do is not interfere with anybody doing what the law says is legal, understand we are under no obligation to like it, agree with it or promote it.
But we have no right to tell another person they can not do so. If we think they are committing a grave sin, we must remember, it is their sin and we did not cause it.
I believe the majority are under the opinion it is wrong to kill a baby.
The issue here is defining a baby. I doubt if we will come to agreement. About all we can do is not interfere with anybody doing what the law says is legal, understand we are under no obligation to like it, agree with it or promote it.
But we have no right to tell another person they can not do so. If we think they are committing a grave sin, we must remember, it is their sin and we did not cause it.
But I think that mindset in itself requires some pretty interesting moral jump rope. Basically, this suggests that people who do believe it to be murder should simply not commit it themselves, but at the same time should turn their backs when others commit it.
It isn't like worshiping a certain god...it really isn't just a matter of opinion that everyone should respect.
We do have a right to tell other people not to do things. That's how we function as a society.
I don't actually know where I stand on the abortion argument. I just find the way people debate it fascinating. Again, everything above suggests it is morally correct to straddle the line and ignore/allow what one strongly feels to be an act of murder.
Again, I think if you're against it, the only morally correct stance would have to be being against it completely- which would mean attempting to stop others from carrying it out (I'm speaking of advocating for new laws, not the killing of abortion providers). And if you're for it, there should be no restrictions and no halfway about it...no judging a woman if she had the procedure at x weeks or 'too many times'.
Another night spent posting misrepresentations, lies, pictures and absolutely NO arguments then huh SuperSoul?
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul
How many times do I have to explain this?
The same amount of times that we then have to explain you are wrong it seems.
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul
Only 7% of abortions each year are because of medical concerns, rape or incest...
93% of the 42,000,000 abortions are human killings justified out of "inconvenience."
That's immoral, as is supporting it.
Even if your made up statistics were correct, this says nothing about the morality of abortion.
Abortion is either moral, or not. The reasons people have for attaining one are irrelevant and it is not for you to judge others for why they want to use a procedure that is not immoral.
What you are attempting to do is indict something you have no arguments against by indicting the motivations people have for doing it. That is a cop out and a canard.
It would be like saying that sweet foods are immoral because some people deliberately eat them to get fat and claim fat person disability allowance. Their motivations for eating might be bad, but that does not mean eating itself becomes bad.
Similarly dissing the motivations of people who want an abortion is NOT the same as attacking abortion, so stop pretending it is solely because you have no arguments against abortion.
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul
Annie, If you're so interested in the "unbiased, straight forward FACTS" - why have you neglected to explain human development in the womb?
You tried this trick twice at least earlier in the thread and I corrected it. You seem to have ignored that and just pasted the same nonsense again. Comical therefore that you accuse OTHERS of spreading lies. Your "Stages" are deliberately vague and misleading. For example your claim about "brain waves" and "pain sensors" is massively misleading.
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul
Celebrities say, Abortion Hurts Woman
So because you can look at the 1000s of celebraties on the planet and find seven or eight that agree with you, you are somehow more correct? What? You really are getting desperate now arent you? What have famous people got to do with it? Does being on television somehow make you more qualified to speak on abortion than anyone else?
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Originally Posted by SuperSoul
12 WEEK HUMAN BEING
You tried this trick in the thread already and I answered it. You of course ignored the post where I answered it, waited a few days, and tried the same trick again.... and when I corrected that one too you ignored it and today try it again. It seems repeating yourself over and over while ignoring all the replies is your mode of operation here.
Not sure what your point is. What does how it LOOKS have to do with anything I am saying? A mannequin looks even more human than what is in that picture and you are not worried about that. An entirely and irredeemably brain dead human lying on a hospital bed is just a human shaped empty vessel. So is what you just showed in your picture.
Remember some areas of the US allow it up until week 24. So my position is hardly controversial. In fact if I were given the pen to write the law tomorrow I would be inclined to set it to 16 weeks for various reasons I gave before, but 20 is also fine with me.
You, and people like you who show photos and even abortion photos are just attempting an "Appeal to emotion" argument. You have no arguments to make so you attempt instead to appeal to the emotions of the other side. Well I am sorry, pictures of a fetus or an aborted fetus are not going to change a position I reached rationally and carefully after reading 100s of studies, many books and talking to many medical professionals.
But I think that mindset in itself requires some pretty interesting moral jump rope. Basically, this suggests that people who do believe it to be murder should simply not commit it themselves, but at the same time should turn their backs when others commit it.
It isn't like worshiping a certain god...it really isn't just a matter of opinion that everyone should respect.
We do have a right to tell other people not to do things. That's how we function as a society.
I don't actually know where I stand on the abortion argument. I just find the way people debate it fascinating. Again, everything above suggests it is morally correct to straddle the line and ignore/allow what one strongly feels to be an act of murder.
Again, I think if you're against it, the only morally correct stance would have to be being against it completely- which would mean attempting to stop others from carrying it out (I'm speaking of advocating for new laws, not the killing of abortion providers). And if you're for it, there should be no restrictions and no halfway about it...no judging a woman if she had the procedure at x weeks or 'too many times'.
Your last paragraph is what I also believe.
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Again, I think if you're against it, the only morally correct stance would have to be being against it completely- which would mean attempting to stop others from carrying it out (I'm speaking of advocating for new laws, not the killing of abortion providers). And if you're for it, there should be no restrictions and no halfway about it...no judging a woman if she had the procedure at x weeks or 'too many times'.
Here is the quandary. We live in a secular society. The laws are established by the courts, not by our individual desires or beliefs. We each must understand that in a secular nation there is separation of church and state. Those of us who are followers of a religious persuasion will always find laws that we consider to be immoral. We do have a right to tell known members of our faith that their acts while legal are sinful under our belief. For instance on a lesser issue, Islam considers the sale, buying, using alcoholic beverages to be extremely sinful. while we may desire that nobody use such, it is legal here, therefore we have no right to interfere with those who choose to use it at long as they use it in accordance of the law. There is no issue if I tell known Muslims who are selling alcohol they are not following Islam. I have no right to go into a non-Muslim owned store and block them from selling alcohol. The same is true with abortion. I am very much anti-Abortion and believe it is my duty to tell Muslims they are committing a grave sin if they have an abortion. But, I have no right to take any illegal action to shut down abortion clinics, which includes harassing those who believe different and see no sin in abortion.
The only way any of us can live under laws that are fully compatible with our religious beliefs is if we were all of the same faith and pious believers in the same faith. That is called a theocracy, which has a tendency to upset those who do not share the same beliefs.
While I would like to see everybody accept Islam and we all live in peace as Muslims, I have to accept the rights and desires of non-Muslims. We all have to live together and the only way we can is to be tolerant of those who follow different paths. We can not drag people onto the path we choose, we must allow each person to follow their own guides and can only force them to live within the legal limits of the land.
It is immoral to force our concept of morality upon others. Even this concept, of not forcing morality, can not be forced upon others.
Simple fact we all have to live within in the laws of the land. If the laws prevent us from practicing or following our belief we have only 3 options.
Celebrities say, Abortion Hurts Woman, that Roe vs. Wade is Wrong
Patricia Heaton: (of Everybody Loves Ramond) "Indeed the tragedy of abortion haunts women from all walks of life. Abortion advocates are spending millions to package their tired rhetoric and half-truths in cutting-edge advertising campaigns targeted to young women. Please join me in supporting FFL's efforts to provide complete information, practical resources, and true choices through the College Outreach program."
Mel Gibson: "God is the only one who knows how many children we should have, and we should be ready to accept them. One can't decide for oneself who comes into this world and who doesn't. That decision doesn't belong to us."
Kathy Ireland: "I was once pro-choice and the thing that changed my mind was, I read my husband's biology books, medical books, and what I learned . . . At the moment of conception, a life starts. And this life has its own unique set of DNA, which contains a blueprint for the whole genetic makeup. The sex is determined. We know there's a life because it's growing and changing."
Margaret Colin:
"We marched here to support all women and to protest the violence against them, legislated by Roe v. Wade. And while many will remember the 40 million [aborted] American children that were never born, I want us to also remember the 25 million women and girls in America today who have personally experienced an abortion."
"And we remember the women who have been rendered infertile or died from legal but lethal abortions…This is violence against women…This is the failure of our American society to help and protect women."
Lakita Garth: (Former Miss Black America) "If you're pregnant, don't compound the problem by seeking an abortion. Getting an abortion doesn't solve anything. You are much better off in that situation to put the baby up for adoption because you might be able to help a couple that can't have children." Regarding saving sex for marriage, Lakita says: "I look forward to the day I can look my husband in the face and say, 'I loved you before I even knew you. I saved myself just for you.' "
Mother Teresa: "The greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion, which is war against the child. The mother doesn't learn to love, but kills to solve her own problems. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want."
President Ronald Regan: "Simple morality dictates that unless and until someone can prove the unborn human is not alive, we must give it the benefit of the doubt and assume it is (alive). And, thus, it should be entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Out of those I recognize three names, none of whom come very high on my list of respected authorities on the subject.
That isn't to say that Kathy Ireland, Ronald Reagan and indeed our Pal Goldnrule have a compelling argument. Until one looks at the very early stages of development and the plight of the mother- host and one has to be very biased indeed to say that choice is to be abrogated unilaterally because of an on - paper technical argument that would be dismissed as relevant to the actual real world if it didn't suit their book.
I'm open to persuasion, but to equivocate potential human life with an actual human life is questionable and, although I would not make a quibble if it was a test tube baby, there is another person involved whose rights and wishes these people above care nothing about, only about their own personal theoretical preferences.
So far I think Roe. v. Wade is the ruling of people much better qualified than ..I won't indulge in epithets..these people whose views are touted above.
Killing an innocent person on purpose is always murder (if an unborn baby is defined as a person having rights as such, it's obviously innocent and not involved in any crime -in the woman's rape, in this case-).
No it is not. Look up a definition of Manslaughter. Consider the example post dealing with a home intruder. Murder is a legal term for INTENTIONALLY killing someone under specific circumstances.
Celebrities say, Abortion Hurts Woman, that Roe vs. Wade is Wrong
There is absolutely no reason we should care what those people think or value their opinions. You're just trying the cloud the issue.
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