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Obviously, you know a great deal more about the physical sciences than I, but I thought evolutionary changes took place so slowly that it would take at least a few thousand years for any noticeable changes to become visible. Therefore, human bodies look pretty much the same as they did during the Crusades, but perhaps a little different from the people that drew on the cave walls in France. I don't see how a single generation of humans would be able to tell if the species is evolving faster or slower than the previous generation.
Am I on track, Mr. Scientific Rifleman?
This is not necessarily the case. Humans are, on average, larger and taller today than we were during the crusade, and much larger than we were when we were drawing cave paintings.
I am sure the doctrine of emergent evolution and its now so called rapid growth is very specifically welcomed into court to rescue consciousness from the undignified position of being God given; I maintain that evolution has discontinuities which science cannot explain. Consciousness can no more modify the working mechanism of the body or its behavior in evolution than can the whistle of a train modify its machinery or where it goes. Moan as it will, the tracks that God laid have long ago decided where the train will go.
Consciousness is the melody that floats from the harp and cannot pluck its strings, the foam struck raging from the river that cannot change its course, the shadow that loyally walks step for step beside the pedestrian, but is quite unable to influence his journey.
I'm afraid your prose is not an appropriate response to that which you do NOT want to believe, and it certainly will not change the facts no matter what nonsense you make up out of thin air.
Alright now your saying that evolution is so slow that its changes takes millions of years. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. A skull found in Chad is 6 million years old. Now this is just speculation Big City; lets give primordal man 7 million years of existence. Lets say he evolved during all those years; I still say his evolution was vastly mere physical, not conscious; not educational; not architextual; not transportational; not in language; not religious; not scientific or technological. In 7 million years all he did was evolve ( slowly) physically. Now the ice age comes, eventually primordal man is discontinued along with the dinosaur.
If that is true, why don't we find Homo erectus remains associated with iPads, Ferraris, or condos. Why are there no Bible's associated with Cro Magnon man? If man has not evolved physically, why is modern man averaging about 6 feet in height, but Lucy was barely 4 feet tall? What evidence do you have that dinosaurs existed during or immediately before the ice age? (This is going to be fun)
My ideas can be interpited as metaphoric, yet consider this; Just as the property of wetness cannot be derived from the properties of hydrogen and oxygen alone, so consciousness emerged at some point in evolution in a way underivable from its constituent parts. Emergent evolution can be vigorously carried all the way back into the beginning of the physical realm , and continued in primordal man perhaps some 7 million years, all I believe without well defined consciousness. The conjunction of consciousness I believe was the dawn of God creating the beginning of civilization and the muteing of vigorous evolution; now no longer energectically emergant but refinedly reserved.
In fact, we know the new relations emergent at each higher level, guide and substain the course of future evolution distinctive of that level. Consciousness then, emerges as something genuinely new at a critical stage of evolutionary advance which had reached its physical peak, now the course of the brain will be given efficay it had never had in 7 million years. The dawn of Consciousness then was the announcement of the end of emergent evolution.
So people can dance in the aisles of continued emergent evolution in modern man all they wish, the aisles of biology campaign a far different true version. We have a less educated evolution, a less rigorous evolution, a far less robust evolution than we have ever had before.
Then I suggest you take the requisite time to find out what it is you are actually talking about. And by the way, the fact that you addressed none of the issues I raised hasn't gone unnoticed.
Then I suggest you take the requisite time to find out what it is you are actually talking about. And by the way, the fact that you addressed none of the issues I raised hasn't gone unnoticed.
Oh I already know what I am talking about; you just don't know what I am saying. And you have not addressed everything I have said either.
Good luck with that^. In case you haven't notice the theory of evolution is a religion to some people. The mere appearance of questioning this theory is fighting words for some people, hence the expedite in name calling/labeling.
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Originally Posted by Mickiel
My ideas can be interpited as metaphoric, yet consider this; Just as the property of wetness cannot be derived from the properties of hydrogen and oxygen alone, so consciousness emerged at some point in evolution in a way underivable from its constituent parts. Emergent evolution can be vigorously carried all the way back into the beginning of the physical realm , and continued in primordal man perhaps some 7 million years, all I believe without well defined consciousness. The conjunction of consciousness I believe was the dawn of God creating the beginning of civilization and the muteing of vigorous evolution; now no longer energectically emergant but refinedly reserved.
In fact, we know the new relations emergent at each higher level, guide and substain the course of future evolution distinctive of that level. Consciousness then, emerges as something genuinely new at a critical stage of evolutionary advance which had reached its physical peak, now the course of the brain will be given efficay it had never had in 7 million years. The dawn of Consciousness then was the announcement of the end of emergent evolution.
So people can dance in the aisles of continued emergent evolution in modern man all they wish, the aisles of biology campaign a far different true version. We have a less educated evolution, a less rigorous evolution, a far less robust evolution than we have ever had before.
It sounds like you're a fan of the de-evolution theory. I believe both evolution and de-evolution are occurring. Common sense tells us we are devolving. Life wants to live, fight or flight, so adaptations to new/ever-changing enviroments are expected. Yes, imo both are occurring. Nothing is static above ground.
The findings and continued findings of Lake Vastok should be quite interesting. I was not a fan of them tapping that million+ year old virgin but I must admit, I'am always waiting with tip-toe anticipation to hear the latest.
I have to admit that the elusiveness of demonstrable proof of currently occurring macro - evolution (to use the term) bothers me, though I find the evidence that it is where we came from compelling. We have as a general race got bigger, and there may be mental adaptations to handle more advanced technology, but those are not conclusive.
While I do find the past evidence compelling and the dismissal of the stack of evidence for evolution by Creationists unreasonable and certainly not good science, I can see why Creationists sneer at fruit fly perversions in the laboratory as evidence that evolution is going on all the time.
AREQUIPA, it is now unavoidable, as sanspeur notes in his links, that we are advancing (and also retreating, as some physical aspects indicate...) in many aspects of our "averaged genetic code". (By that I mean, not one single human is identical genetically to another unless they are twins that is, in which case, they were genetically identical to begin with, but one egg that split in two.).
What genome mapping shows us are accumulated traits that express themselves in more than one offspring, with "trends" showing up in ever-larger cohorts within the general hominid population. These traits may well be some useful response to an stimulus (better ability to see in slightly darker conditions, improved hearing, or an increase is mesurable IQ). Individuals might well have these improvements, like my uncle, who ended up as a night nav/bomber in WW-II in one of those nifty radar-equipped DH Mosquito f/bs...
...since he demonstrated, time and again, his hugely superior night vision to the astonishment of his superiors and the doctors at the time. But this is not demonstrated in a measurable number of offspring. Now, if this proved to be of use in terms of overall species survival, which it would have in the primordial cays, then of course it would have become the "norm".
Through all the now-known mechanisms, plus coupling with another genetically different individual, a new proto-species emerges with each new generation, essentially. It's an intermediate and (dare I say it?) Missing Link (only if it's "Missing" of course...) between where it was previously and where it's offspring will be.
This endless process is now documented in DNA genome mapping, down to individual allele pairs, which Mickiel ignores completely here, and won't discuss because, well heck; it's thoroughly irrefutable stuff and dis-proves all his pet God-o-Centric theories!
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Originally Posted by orogenicman
There is no rule that says that evolution proceeds from less complex to more complex or visa versa. It has no arrow of complexity. Populations evolve to adapt to their environment. That adaptation may lead to a more complex organism. Just as likely, it can lead to a less complex organism. Or the complexity may remain the say, only different from what it was before.
How very true ogm! Our own now-missing tail is the quickest example. We don't need it (well most of us don't. O coucrse, some of us still belong up in the metaphorical trees, picking nits out of the other evangelicals' mental fur matting...IMHO of course), so over time, the loss of anything useless in the phenotypes of our multiple generations of offspring went unnoticed. However, our intellect, being of prime utility to us all now and in the past, has indeed improved. Sadly, with increased reasoning abilities comes some understandable reluctance to reproduce and bring an innocent but potentially brighter child into such vast global mayhem and ongoing religious paranoia and double-speak.
Hence, the far less educated, and certainly in so many cases, the more mob-mentality oriented, seem to be breeding all out of proportion to their intellectual abilities. This does not bode well for species enhancement nor survival. Unless, of course, the more intelligent eventually seek to "eliminate" the less gifted. A few well-managed fusion reactions, for example.... I'm just sayin'...
A retro version of this convoluted thinking of course exists in the Muslim world where their leaders, quite intelligently, have put forth the summary idea that the minions, all mindlessly rump-up in the streets, must carry out the greater Qu'Ranic edict to finish off all us wrong-God infidels.
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Originally Posted by Mickiel
Well this is why I have termed it reserved evolution, because if we are to again see the dramatic evolution of the prehistoric past, its going to have to be at a time yet in the future and equally as dramatic; and incidently the bible describes such a dramatic evolution comming into human destiny; it just calls it being " Born Again."
What we now see is an obvious reduction in the evolution of all things, with very few exceptions, none of which are major or dramatic, as compared to primordal evolution.
Oh my: making it up as we go along, are we? You hit that option right on it's head when you said that you"have termed it reserved evolution", Mickiel. This is a concept that only you subscribe to, and it's obviously an attempt to minimize the facts of natural Evolution's properties and mechanisms. The process does not stop, as in: the mutations do not slow down nor refuse to be tested out in the real world, just because youthink, or worse, desperately hope is the case.
Your "system concoctions" and "drivers" don't exist. This is not some wooden-iconic God's system, Mickiel. It's just the natural world evolving as it always has and always will.
And finally, the human genome is NOT the only genome on the planet. What about the onging and often rapid evolution of the 10 - 30M other species on this planet? You're obvious theocratically based homo-centric arrogance is showing yet again: as in: in your mind, we humans are the only important thing in the entire universe. It revolves around your God and us.
You also categorically won't discuss DNA genome mapping, which has summarily provensanspeur's point, now will you? Q: if you are supposedly a thoughtful, open-minded individual, what do you do when your hypothesis is completely proven wrong? Do you gracefuly accept what you'd see as defeat, do you categorically then refuse to discuss the points based on their obvious merits and documented observations and just continue to yowl on? Or do you EVER bow gracefully and admit others have far more understanding and knowledge than you? After all, none of us are experts in everything.
SO.. pick one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy
Obviously, you know a great deal more about the physical sciences than I, but I thought evolutionary changes took place so slowly that it would take at least a few thousand years for any noticeable changes to become visible. Therefore, human bodies look pretty much the same as they did during the Crusades, but perhaps a little different from the people that drew on the cave walls in France. I don't see how a single generation of humans would be able to tell if the species is evolving faster or slower than the previous generation.
Am I on track, Mr. Scientific Rifleman?
Quite so, mensaguy! (OPS: it's the biosciences and some geology I have a good basis in, plus some mechanical/automotive engineering. As for the physical sciences, perhaps we should ring up MysticPhD? hee hee.. Or, seriously, orogenicman, a certified geologist as I recall...)
As has been pointed out elsewhere, Evolution, even during the much overblown and misunderstood Cambrian Explosion (often mis-used by Creationists to show God's power to instantly create "stuff"...) took literally millions of years, which was a drop in the chronological bucket when compared to the entirety of life's Evolutionary processes.
Let's never forget that the stated requirement of countless masses of scientifically illiterate [the Si-Illit™] Creationists is that they'll only believe in Evolution "when my cat gives birth to a dog overnight!".
Yup; they gets it alright.... Mickiel's carefully reserved and modified (and incorrect of course...) definitions and understandings of the actual mechanisms of true Evolution prove that sad point, over and over, time and again.
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Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
Maybe there's a misunderstanding, so let me try another angle:
Imagine you're watching a snail move very, very slowly. So slowly in fact that it takes an hour just to go 7 inches. That's awfully slow, right?
Now, imagine that you keep watching that snail for a million years. Do you know how far it would get in that time? The answer is it would have circled the earth more than 40 times.
I use the above example to illustrate by analogy the kind of pace that evolution happens at. To us, the pace feels painfully slow. But given the timescale of evolution - which is millions of years - even that painfully slow pace eventually leads to very dramatic changes.
Very nicely done example, BCD. Of course, by that time, our original proto-snail would have evolved a much better intellect and, with it's newly adapted opposable appendage/feeler/slime tentacle, would have invented and then assembled a small ligher-than-air craft powered by frequently ignited snail-farts, and would have simply propelled and floated around the earth's circumference! In a far shorter time frame! ("toot-blammm...ZOOOOM"!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
Alright now your saying that evolution is so slow that its changes takes millions of years. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. A skull found in Chad is 6 million years old. Now this is just speculation Big City; lets give primordal man 7 million years of existence.
Lets say he evolved during all those years; I still say his evolution was vastly mere physical, not conscious; not educational; not architextual; not transportational; not in language; not religious; not scientific or technological. In 7 million years all he did was evolve ( slowly) physically. Now the ice age comes, eventually primordal man is discontinued along with the dinosaur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Wrong again. "I still say" doesn't cut it here, Mickiel. One what actual measurable basis do you "still say"? Rather, you assume or try to make fit your hoped-for ides into reality (<crunch... shove...crunkle... OK! There! NOW it fits!>) but you fail, repeatedly.
Then, in my view,..
(rflmn: here you go again, making it up...)
God creates Adam and gives him a working consciousness; now the life of man becomes intellectual, he has culture , religion, science, agriculture, architexture, he is now different than anything else we know of in the universe, and the keys to that were God and his given image- "consciousness." Now it is as if man and his life evolved to a certain point, and then " Exploded" at a right angle and burst into a totally new direction!
It is my contention that God used evolution, and although he did not totally use it up, its main purpose is now mostly complete and man now has a consciousness, and that is what God wants to continue to evolve, evolution is just no longer physically necessary, 7 million years of it was enough. The drama of humans becoming intellectually conscious, was the biggest change in evolution to ever occur in man, and it was given " Instantly", not slowly over the years.
So what little evolution is left to occur, is both reserved and waning.
What a load. Again, you arrogantly assume, without any demonstrable merit, that Evolution is somehow reserved for man's advancement alone, and entirely through your faker God. How incomplete.
Recent Antarctic oceanic and deep-level bio-exploration has provided information on many all-new species, found almost daily btw, in which the researchers are genetically back-logging to show the species have only "recently" evolved (within the past 5 -20k years.... a erop in the overall time-frame bucket!)
A bit too slow for you to notice and agree, but changes nonetheless... and NOT limited to or solely within the human genome! OMG, huh? But meantime, PTL, huh? )
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur
Do you actually think you know more than these guys? (rflmn's note: Why yes... he does, sans. He really does!)
"We found very many human genes undergoing selection" says anthropologist Gregory Cochran of the University of Utah, a member of the team that analyzed the 3.9 million DNA sequences* showing the most variation. "Most are very recent, so much so that the rate of human evolution over the past few thousand years is far greater than it has been over the past few million years." Culture Speeds Up Human Evolution: Scientific American
etc...
Human evolution has been moving at breakneck speed in the past several thousand years, far from plodding along as some scientists had thought, researchers said on Monday. Rapid acceleration in human evolution described | Reuters
I am sure the doctrine of emergent evolution and its now so called rapid growth is very specifically welcomed into court to rescue consciousness from the undignified position of being God given; I maintain that evolution has discontinuities which science cannot explain. Consciousness can no more modify the working mechanism of the body or its behavior in evolution than can the whistle of a train modify its machinery or where it goes. Moan as it will, the tracks that God laid have long ago decided where the train will go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Again with the "I maintain" stuff huh?; It' all completely unsupportable and humano-centric, which makes it all "bunk" of the highest order, but I will agree: it does fit with your spiritually and psychologically-mandated frantic beliefs. Elsewise, given that there absolutely is no God, you're gonna have to re-evaluate your upcoming inevitable demise Alternate Plan B, won't you?
Consciousness is the melody that floats from the harp and cannot pluck its strings, the foam struck raging from the river that cannot change its course, the shadow that loyally walks step for step beside the pedestrian, but is quite unable to influence his journey.
Oh my: how poetic. Sadly, that alone doesn't make any of your assuaging fairy-tales so. (PS: many, esp. Christians, are affected by their own shadows! Those little reminders of our own eventual mortality often scare the Be-Jee-suss out of an illiterate soul!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman
And yet genetics has shown unambiguously that macroevolution is real. There are no "kinds" of species. There are only species.
Absolutely so. Of course, devout denialist Christians like to re-define Evolution and "species" as they see fit; see previous comment about cats birthing dogs..)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
I hold no intrest in being made fun of.
My ideas can be interpited (????interpited"??? WTH? rflmn™) as metaphoric, yet consider this; Just as the property of wetness cannot be derived from the properties of hydrogen and oxygen alone, so consciousness emerged at some point in evolution in a way underivable from its constituent parts.
Emergent evolution can be vigorously carried all the way back into the beginning of the physical realm , and continued in primordal man perhaps some 7 million years, all I believe without well defined consciousness. The conjunction of consciousness I believe was the dawn of God creating the beginning of civilization and the muteing of vigorous evolution; now no longer energectically emergant but refinedly reserved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Sorry: apes, gorillas, orangutans and certainly chimps, dolphins, whales and even ravens, have all clearly demonstrated an open and teachable consciousness, their abilities to think into the future regarding the consequences of their actions, plus the implications of actions on their communities, and so on.
You however sadly persist in the highly erroneous idea that "man alone shall have Dominion over the Beasts of the Land..." blah blah blah., and that its always and only about us! And then, even with that mis-information, you then go on to say Evolution of our consciousness (a straight-forward result of simple biochemistry and neuronal connection patterns..) is reserved for humans! And has essentially stopped!
So sorry: our current and ever-increasing general population IQ levels (Q: ever talk to Stephen Hawking, Chris Hitchens or Richard Dawkins? Of course not! They would put you under the intellectual table, so to speak..) reflect those of our known genetic predecessors, including all the Paleolithic types: Cro-Magnons, Neanderthals and others, all the way down to your distant cousin, Lucy and her kin.
So people can dance in the aisles of continued emergent evolution in modern man all they wish, the aisles of biology campaign a far different true version. We have a less educated evolution, a less rigorous evolution, a far less robust evolution than we have ever had before.
Rubbish of course, as usual, and so easily proven to be just that.
Well, do please hurry up (as per your implausible time schedule for observable Evolution...) and grow a better-managed brain, would-jah please, Mickiel? It's getting tiresome to have to CONSTANTLY upgrade your endless mis-informed mistakes!
Physical evolution is no longer important in humans, consciousness is whats important. Physical evolutions roots rummage far back into the musty history of primordal man, internal evolution was important then; now it simply has reduced and is reserved at best. And I maintain this, inspite of the proud feathers it has ruffled in some die hard evolutionist. The human body grew weary of evolution, 7 million years of it; and yet the diehardist still want more. In one laboratory after another biology will deny them their thirst, the excitement they get from simple darkness being made light.
Anatomical evolution is subtracting itself from reality, the time has come for " The Waking Brain." The excitement many die hard evolutionist seek gives over reason to delusion, they have a tendency to always try to translate psychological phenomena into neuro-anatomy and chemistry. They don't understand the true orgin of consciousness, which was the cancelation of evolution, so they continue to see a reason for evolution and they are abusing evolution , streching it far beyong its true purpose. They are addicted to evolution now, cannot let it go, and will substain their abuse of it like an addict. And continue to stay in denial until they rehab.
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) and grow a better-managed brain, would-jah please, Mickiel? It's getting tiresome to have to CONSTANTLY upgrade your endless mis-informed mistakes!