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HE is the educated scholar with facts and research backing him up. YOU are the biased, unqualified, non-credentialed quack publisher printing snake oil to the rest of your uneducated creationist/Biblical literalist sheep herd.
First of all, being an "educated scholar" does not allow one into the sacred halls of God's wisdom and knowledge which only He gives.
You see QH, There are very few wise, very few noble per this:
1Co 1:26-29 For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are
not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful (ones), not many noble (ones),
(27) but the stupid (ones} of the world God chooses, that He may be
disgracing the wise (ones), and the weak (ones) of the world God chooses, that He
may be disgracing the strong (ones), (28) and the ignoble and the contemptible (ones)
of the world God chooses, and those who are nobodies, that He may be
discarding the somebodies, (29) so that no flesh at all should be boasting in
God's sight.
So I glory in my being a fool, week, not noble born. Yes I am ignoble and contemptible, a nobody. Such God saves.
Of course there are a few born of nobility He chooses, a few wise but for the most part God chooses the such ones as me.
This is how it should be. Of course your rant against me humiliates me. I feel hurt by it. But again, I guess that is how it should be too.
So, thanks for slapping my face and plunging the knife deep and twisting it. You hit your mark perfectly and for that I am thankful.
I accept your cutting words. Bless you.
Completely untrue. Spirits died all the time in the ancient Near East. Every culture back then had traditions about deities dying. On this, see Peter Machinist, "How Gods Die, Biblically and Otherwise: A Problem of Cosmic Restructuring,” in Beate Pongratz-Leisten, ed., Reconsidering Revolutionary Monotheism (Winona Lake, Ind.: Eisenbrauns, 2011): 189–240. Additionally, the text insists that the gods will be punished with mortality. In other words, before the passing of the sentence, they were not mortal. The strong contrast provided by the construction, in addition, insists that these gods are a remarkable exception to the general notion that gods are immortal. You'll find, if you look throughout the literature of the Bible and the ancient Near East, that the most ideologically significant portions are not where the rules are always followed, but where the exceptions are prominent.
Uh, no, that's not at all what the Hebrew says. There's no such thing as a "royal death," and v. 6 has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with royalty.
I don't allude to any uniquely Latter-day Saint scripture in my paper, and I only directly discuss Latter-day Saint stuff for a paragraph. There's plenty of discussion of the interpretation of the psalm around the turn of the era. Also, you can find a more detailed discussion of Psalm 82 within the Psalms of Asaph here.
Daniel, what church do you belong to? The question is pertinent to our discussion, so, please tell me. Do you belong the the Mormon church?
As to spirits dying, no, they do not die. They are not mortal.
When the spirit being Satan is cast into the abyss for a thousand years, rather than being killed by it he is just held until released at the end of the thousand years.
When the spirit being Satan is cast into the lake of fire, rather than being killed by it he is tormented.
When the spirit beings are held in chains of darkness (2 Pet.2:4), and have been for thousands of years unto the day of judging, they are not dead but still waiting.
Psalm 82 makes perfect sense from what I said about it. Your ideas you implant into that psalm are fanciful at best and most likely the direct result of the church you belong to.
Daniel, what church do you belong to? The question is pertinent to our discussion, so, please tell me. Do you belong the the Mormon church?
As to spirits dying, no, they do not die. They are not mortal.
When the spirit being Satan is cast into the abyss for a thousand years, rather than being killed by it he is just held until released at the end of the thousand years.
When the spirit being Satan is cast into the lake of fire, rather than being killed by it he is tormented.
When the spirit beings are held in chains of darkness, and have been for thousands of years unto the day of judging, they are not dead but still waiting.
Psalm 82 makes perfect sense from what I said about it. Your ideas you implant into that psalm are fanciful at best and most likely the direct result of the church you belong to.
Aw, c'mon Eusebius! Let's not go there, please? I mean, what you said above your last paragraph is the stuff of fantasy (and fraught with huge problems), yet the guy goes through great lengths to study his work and present his findings and you call it fanciful and a result of the church he attends? That is rather simplistic and insulting don't you think? Then you take on this smug attitude of glorying in some ignorance/arrogance disguised as humility. C'mon, man! I HOPE you can do better than that.
The topic falls on to two sides. Those with solid scholarly backing and those with forced interpretations designed to fit INTO a pre-biased theology.
First of all, being an "educated scholar" does not allow one into the sacred halls of God's wisdom and knowledge which only He gives.
You see QH, There are very few wise, very few noble per this:
1Co 1:26-29 For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are
not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful (ones), not many noble (ones),
(27) but the stupid (ones} of the world God chooses, that He may be
disgracing the wise (ones), and the weak (ones) of the world God chooses, that He
may be disgracing the strong (ones), (28) and the ignoble and the contemptible (ones)
of the world God chooses, and those who are nobodies, that He may be
discarding the somebodies, (29) so that no flesh at all should be boasting in
God's sight.
So I glory in my being a fool, week, not noble born. Yes I am ignoble and contemptible, a nobody. Such God saves.
Of course there are a few born of nobility He chooses, a few wise but for the most part God chooses the such ones as me.
This is how it should be. Of course your rant against me humiliates me. I feel hurt by it. But again, I guess that is how it should be too.
So, thanks for slapping my face and plunging the knife deep and twisting it. You hit your mark perfectly and for that I am thankful.
I accept your cutting words. Bless you.
It has nothing to do with being a nobody, or weak, Eusebius. Everyone learns new things, and this involves admitting that one doesn't know these things. A 12th grader will not insult a 6th grader because he hasn't taken 11th grade Calculus yet, but he might insult that 6th grader if the 6th grader continually claims that he is an excellent Mathematician and that the 12th grader is dead wrong about Math, despite that 6th grader never having taken Calculus.
If you make bold claims that are not correct and easily demonstrated to be so, then people will correct you. If you refuse to even consider the correction and instead lash back, you won't find a friendly response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Daniel, what church do you belong to? The question is pertinent to our discussion, so, please tell me. Do you belong the the Mormon church?
Psalm 82 makes perfect sense from what I said about it. Your ideas you implant into that psalm are fanciful at best and most likely the direct result of the church you belong to.
The reading of Psalm 82 that Daniel offered (and others) is pretty standard in Biblical Scholarship and is in no way "influenced" by the Mormon Church. I provided a citation from the DDD (which is a non-demoninational schlolarly work) that stated the same basic thing concerning Psalm 82, or did you miss that? Open up any reputable commentary on Psalm 82 and you will probably find the same exact thing. Consult any modern Bible that has good footnotes, and you will also find the exact same thing - whether it be Catholic or Protestant, or whatever.
The reading of Psalm 82 - again - has been pretty standard in Biblical studies for decades now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Aw, c'mon Eusebius! Let's not go there, please? I mean, what you said above your last paragraph is the stuff of fantasy (and fraught with huge problems), yet the guy goes through great lengths to study his work and present his findings and you call it fanciful and a result of the church he attends? That is rather simplistic and insulting don't you think? Then you take on this smug attitude of glorying in some ignorance/arrogance disguised as humility. C'mon, man! I HOPE you can do better than that.
The topic falls on to two sides. Those with solid scholarly backing and those with forced interpretations designed to fit INTO a pre-biased theology.
Your absolutely right, Insane. When all else fails, fall back on accusations of denominational bias, and the "smug attitude of glorying in some ignorance/arrogance disguised as humility" - it's very similar to the usual claim that Faith trumps Reason that some Christians use from time to time, as if that precludes any investigation into Scripture (what it means to them is that it precludes any investigation into Scripture that clashes with their own beliefs concerning it).
Though not always achieved, Biblical scholars (if they are worth their salt) try their hardest to avoid bias - especially denominational bias. Some scholars avoid the possibility of denominational bias by not even belonging to one.
Daniel, what church do you belong to? The question is pertinent to our discussion, so, please tell me. Do you belong the the Mormon church?
Yes, I do, but it is not pertinent. I approach the Bible from a secular point of view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
As to spirits dying, no, they do not die. They are not mortal.
Jesus died. Baal died. Yamm died. Qingu died. Tiamat died. Where do you find the universal claim that gods cannot ever die? The default is that they are immortal, but as I pointed out, there are exceptions to every rule. The rhetorical force of the contrast in vv. 6–7 would be lost without that default. The fact that they're generally not supposed to die is what makes the text impactfull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
When the spirit being Satan is cast into the abyss for a thousand years, rather than being killed by it he is just held until released at the end of the thousand years.
When the spirit being Satan is cast into the lake of fire, rather than being killed by it he is tormented.
When the spirit beings are held in chains of darkness (2 Pet.2:4), and have been for thousands of years unto the day of judging, they are not dead but still waiting.
Psalm 82 makes perfect sense from what I said about it.
No, it doesn't. The contrast in the nature of the accused and their condemnation to mortality absolutely precludes their being mortals. Additionally, they are unilaterally called "gods" and there is simply no justification whatsoever for insisting that means anything other than "gods."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Your ideas you implant into that psalm are fanciful at best and most likely the direct result of the church you belong to.
No, it has nothing to do with that. It has only to do with what an objective and informed look at the evidence inevitably leads one to conclude. There's a reason the vast, vast majority of scholars, Jewish, Christian, and otherwise, agree that Psalm 82 refers to real deities, and it has nothing to do with Mormonism.
Jesus died. Baal died. Yamm died. Qingu died. Tiamat died. Where do you find the universal claim that gods cannot ever die? The default is that they are immortal, but as I pointed out, there are exceptions to every rule. The rhetorical force of the contrast in vv. 6–7 would be lost without that default. The fact that they're generally not supposed to die is what makes the text impactfull.
Certainly! The contrast between deity (who are immortal) and humanity (who die) is what does catch the attention. You are gods who will NOW die like mere mortals.
Somewhere along the line, someone recognized that this passage smelled of some kind of polytheism and "gods" became judges/humans. Again, to admit the obvious carries ramifications and ripples across other beliefs.
Yes, I do, but it is not pertinent. I approach the Bible from a secular point of view.
You are coming from a Mormon perspective.
Quote:
Jesus died. Baal died. Yamm died. Qingu died. Tiamat died. Where do you find the universal claim that gods cannot ever die? The default is that they are immortal, but as I pointed out, there are exceptions to every rule. The rhetorical force of the contrast in vv. 6–7 would be lost without that default. The fact that they're generally not supposed to die is what makes the text impactfull.
Jesus was not a spirit being but flesh, bones and blood. Baal was a human. I am talking about SPIRITS. SPIRITS are not mortal.
Quote:
No, it doesn't. The contrast in the nature of the accused and their condemnation to mortality absolutely precludes their being mortals. Additionally, they are unilaterally called "gods" and there is simply no justification whatsoever for insisting that means anything other than "gods."
They were human judges in Israel.
Quote:
No, it has nothing to do with that. It has only to do with what an objective and informed look at the evidence inevitably leads one to conclude. There's a reason the vast, vast majority of scholars, Jewish, Christian, and otherwise, agree that Psalm 82 refers to real deities, and it has nothing to do with Mormonism.
[/quote]You are espousing a fallacy of argumentum ad populum which proves nothing.
Eusebuis, as a side note to the discussion this sentence seems to explain a lot about your approach. Here, after being explicitly told by Daniel that, while he is Mormon, he chooses to lay aside his personal belief when engaging in his profession and approach the text in an unbiased manner, you essentially accuse him of being a liar who's professional endeavors are only a coverup for fanatical doctrinal dogmatism. You appear to be insinuating that no one can out aside their personal beliefs and evaluate evidence solely on its merits.
If this is how you truly approach the world, it is no wonder that you refuse to honestly evaluate scholarly works, in Biblical literature as well as all branches of science. You appear to view all knowledge as simply propaganda for a viewpoint, to be shouted down by ones own propaganda in order to sway the masses. Please understand that just because you will not or cannot put aside your own beliefs and prejudices in order to evaluate evidence objectively, this does not imply that others suffer from the same inability.
It has nothing to do with being a nobody, or weak, Eusebius. Everyone learns new things, and this involves admitting that one doesn't know these things. A 12th grader will not insult a 6th grader because he hasn't taken 11th grade Calculus yet, but he might insult that 6th grader if the 6th grader continually claims that he is an excellent Mathematician and that the 12th grader is dead wrong about Math, despite that 6th grader never having taken Calculus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers
Oh, dear Whoppers, it looks like we are one step away from worshiping Santa Scholarship.
How about the 6th grader having solved a problem by using common sense while the 12th grader is trying to solve it by utilizing his knowledge of Calculus?
The 6th grader may very well be smarter than the 12th grader.
Accumulation of knowledge is not proof of intelligence.
05-12-2012, 11:24 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You are coming from a Mormon perspective.
Isn't that the height of hypocrisy Mr. Concordant Publishing Concern.
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