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Finally, there is no need for you to start getting snarky and condescending. Despite the differences here, I think we can debate in peace as i am sure others are watching on and learning a great deal. I sure am.
Tell that to Daniel. He keeps using condescending puerile remarks towards me. It gets irksome after awhile.
Tell that to Daniel. He keeps using condescending puerile remarks towards me. It gets irksome after awhile.
It gets irksome for me when people presume to speak down to me about my profession when they clearly have no idea what they're talking about. I've also asked you a number of direct questions that you've simply ignored for one reason or another. I find that quite irksome. You're also throwing a lot of red herrings and strawmen at me, responding to arguments that I have never made, even after I've clarified for you. I find that quite irksome. Am I being curt in response? Yes, but it's you who is being the most irrational and showing the least amount of respect.
Your translation misinterprets it in an effort to hide from the problematic theology of what the Hebrew actually says. This betrays its tendentiousness and also shows it's perfectly happy to violate its own translation principles when it serves its theological sensitivities. .
How so?
Here is the CLNT:
Rom_4:17 according as it is written that, A father of many nations have I
appointed you - facing which, he believes it of the God Who is vivifying the
dead and calling what is not as if it were -"
Rom_4:18 who, being beyond expectation, believes in expectation, for him
to become the father of many nations, according to that which has been
declared, "Thus shall be your seed."
Here it is in Genesis 17:5:
5 So your name shall no longer be called Abram;
but your name will become Abraham, for
a father of a throng of nations have I appointed you.
I'm giving you a legitimate translation of that verse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
How so?
Well, for one, the present verse does not interpolate "as" in an effort to make the "appointment" seem figurative. The whole notion of "appoint" is also an exegetical evasion of the simple semantic sense of this use of the verb. It simply means "make" in the sense of "turn into." The sense is the same for the Greek τιθημι.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Here is the CLNT:
Rom_4:17 according as it is written that, A father of many nations have I
appointed you - facing which, he believes it of the God Who is vivifying the
dead and calling what is not as if it were -"
Rom_4:18 who, being beyond expectation, believes in expectation, for him
to become the father of many nations, according to that which has been
declared, "Thus shall be your seed."
Here it is in Genesis 17:5:
5 So your name shall no longer be called Abram;
but your name will become Abraham, for
a father of a throng of nations have I appointed you.
Notice the word "as" is not snuck into the construction. Perhaps you recall that "as" was the word you emphasized in the translation of Exod 7:1 as precluding the notion of an actual deification.
It seems clear - he hops around to whatever translation backs up his statements. When the translation works against another of his statements, he hops to a different one. How many older, "literal" translations has he invoked in this thread already?
This is why people should avoid arguing from single words in an English translation - translation is not some simple procedure that can produce some perfect translation into English, from which confident exegesis can be performed.
Yet we see it done frequently by some members. It reminds me of that infamous comma of the Jehovah Witnesses' translation of "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise" to avoid the more common "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise" and the implications this has which go against Jehovah's Witness doctrine.
Person A starts with the evidence, and then finds the conclusion.
Person B starts with a conclusions, and then finds the evidence.
The difference between the two is that person A is intellectually honest.
Perfectly said!
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