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“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)
But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out
“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)
“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)
How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones??
Now the Christians have four options to choose from.
1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.
2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.
3. Jesus (pbuh) is a lied that God forsook him.
4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.
You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.
Can that person on the cross be jesus? NO
the problem is HOW CAN PROPHET OF GOD SAY
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
WHEN HE KNOW THAT GOD DONT FORSAKE PROPHETS AND BELIEVERS. EVEN TOUGH THEY GOT KILLED, BUT gOD HELP THEM TROUGH THE DEATH SO THEY DONT FEEL PAIN AND GOD LET THEM GO IN PARADISE.
you christians say that jesus knew that he would be killed, and sacrificed for the sins of mankind, so how can he then say something like this
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
imagine this:
Imagine you are football player, and the Boss of that football team says to you, you are our most valuable player, we need to sell you to get some money to save the club so it does not get bancrupt. I will sell you to best team in the world, Barcelona, you agree with that, beacuse you will play in biggest team in the world. You say to him, ok, sell me immidiatelly, and when that day comes, when the Boss sell you , you ask your boss
"My Boss, my Boss, why have you forsaken me?"
do you realise why jesus could not say something like this. it is not logical at all. but who said something like that on the cross, best explanations comes from gospel of barnabas wich you christian think is forgery.
but look now how stuff look more logical:
217: Judas was Crucified
....So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world....
Judas was punished by God, God transformed Judas to look like jesus beacuse he betrayed jesus. SO God pnished him and soldiers crucified Judas instead of jesus.
216: Judas Transformed
Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'
And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.
Evidence that jesus never ressurected nor got killed from bible itself, this is just little bit, and there is a lot.
Ressurected body from the dead get spiritualised says jesus according to bible: In (Luke 20: 34-36): "And answering said unto them: 'The children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection’
But look here
Read Luke 24:36-41: “And as they (the
disciples) thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them,
and saith unto them, “Peace be unto you”. (Exactly as a Muslim
greets) But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that
they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, “Why are ye
troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my
hands and my feet, that it is I myself, handle me and see, for a
spirit hath no flesh and bones as ye see me have.” And when
he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And
while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto
them, “Have ye here any meat?” And they gave him a piece of
broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat
before them.” Living people eat food, not dead people or
resurrected ones, as Jesus stated in Luke
as we can see here, jesus was not spirit as ressurected bodies as the dead are.
That is why jesus was never on that cross nor was he ever killed.
God talks about so called crusifixion of Jesus in quran:
4:157 And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!" They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.
158 God raised him up to Himself. God is almighty and wise.
But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out
“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)
“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)
How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones??
Now the Christians have four options to choose from.
Oh my goodness. You could not possibly be so ignorant. Assuming, of course, the authenticity of the report(s) - which would be more than a little dumb - the obvious explanation would be that Jesus was referencing the 22 Psalm thereby suggesting that he was the fulfillment of prophecy.
A suggestion: stop embarrassing yourself. Your so-called proof (first posted here, a forum from which you are temporarily suspended), proves absoltely nothing.
Last edited by Jayhawker Soule; 10-01-2012 at 07:00 AM..
Here are my earlier post as to the suspects who really killed Jesus?
Suspect Number Four:
4. THE JEWISH RELIGIOUS LEADERS?
Luk 24:20 “Our chief priests and rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and he was crucified.” Luk 22:2; John 18:35; John 19:11; Mat 21:43; Th 2:14-15; 1Th 2:16
Suspect Number Five:
5. THE JEWISH CROWD?
Mat 27:22 "What, then, shall I do with Jesus called the Messiah?" Pilate asked them. "Crucify him!" they all answered. 23But Pilate asked, "What crime has he committed?" Then they started shouting at the top of their voices: "Crucify him!" 24When Pilate saw that it was no use to go on, but that a riot might break out, he took some water, washed his hands in front of the crowd, and said, "I am not responsible for the death of this man! This is your doing!" 25The whole crowd answered, "Let the responsibility for his death fall on us and on our children!" John 1:11; Luk 23:27-28
The Gospels are not reliable, the evangelists fiddled, added to and elaborated a text that was (being originally a product of Pauline Christianity) anti - Jew and (being written by Roman Christians) intent on getting Rome off the hook.
I do not believe Luke and not only because none of the other three writers know anything about this astonishing appearance of Jesus to Cleophas (from where this quote comes)
Neither do I believe Matthew, and not only because his passage where Pilate passes the responsibility for Jesus' death onto the Jews and they ALL eagerly accept it AND THEIR CHILDREN, is not found in the other gospels (1) -even in Mark which closely corresponds with Matthew, but because the whole trial story is so much hogwash.
Matthew added that remark himself for the purpose of not only shifting the blame for killing Jesus from Rome but for justifying his detestation of all Jews, one and all. In a book with a good deal of competition for most loathesome (2) and disgusting bit of scripture, I have to say that Matthew 27.25 makes my gorge rise more than anything else. Because the Romans killed hundreds of thousands, but it was centuries ago. The legacy of that ghastly passage in ongoing persecution of Jewry has lasted from the crusades till today.
If anyone killed Jesus, it was Rome. It was not the Jews and is certainly not us though our unbelief. But the millions of Jews who perished in pogrom and holocaust were killed by Christians on the basis of that passage, and the guilt remains with those who believe today that it is true. Who killed all those Jews? You did.
(1) you ref. the corresponding passages in Mark, Luke and John. You have the opportunity here to claw back some credit by admitting that 'blood upon us' passage does NOT appear in Mark, Luke or John and also that it is inexplicable that it should not so appear if it was true.
(2) spelling deliberate as the 'e' conveys my disgust better
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-01-2012 at 08:01 AM..
“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)
Psalm 37 is more than a little interesting but I see no reason to think it anything other than well crafted biblical poetry exercising theologically driven poetic license.
The Gospels are not reliable, the evangelists fiddled, added to and elaborated a text that was (being originally a product of Pauline Christianity) anti - Jew and (being written by Roman Christians) intent on getting Rome off the hook.
I do not believe Luke...
Neither do I believe Matthew...
Matthew added that remark himself...
If anyone killed Jesus, it was Rome. It was not the Jews and is certainly not us though our unbelief. But the millions of Jews who perished in pogrom and holocaust were killed by Christians on the basis of that passage, and the guilt remains with those who believe today that it is true. Who killed all those Jews? You did.
(1) you ref. the corresponding passages in Mark, Luke and John. You have the opportunity here to claw back some credit by admitting that 'blood upon us' passage does NOT appear in Mark, Luke or John and also that it is inexplicable that it should not so appear if it was true.
(2) spelling deliberate as the 'e' conveys my disgust better
I cannot blame you if you keep on insisting that you do not believe in Luke or Matthew or Mark and John... because that's what you firmly believe... but you cannot blame me too if I believe their writings because I don't believe it was them who Masterminded the 4 Gospels - but the Holy Spirit. They were led by the Spirit to write 4 different angles of the life of Jesus... of course, even in the court of law, 4 different witnesses will not testify from the same point of view but from their own... Matthew was written for the Jews, while Mark was written as a witness for the Romans... Luke was written for the Greeks and John was written for the rest of mankind... they are the 4 living creatures in heaven that were filled with eyes (as witness), to the murder of the Son of GOD... but as I have contended... it was neither the Jews or the Romans that killed Jesus - it was the sin of all men of Whom He offered His own life as a ransom for many... Only those who will accept His sacrifice for them will be forgiven and given eternal life.
As for your accusation that "But the millions of Jews who perished in pogrom and holocaust were killed by Christians on the basis of that passage"... I will refute that, because true Christians love Jews (and all men) because we do not take away their privilege as GOD's chosen people... And I am grateful to them because they rejected their Messiah - thus the Gospel of Salvation was also brought to us non-Jewish... I pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and bless the Jews and Israel. We love even our enemies because that is what the LORD Jesus had taught us.
And we do not accuse the Jews or the Romans as the one who killed Jesus - because we learned that it was our sins that killed Him but His love kept Him on the Cross to satisfy the Father who willed that without the shedding of the blood, there is no remission of sin.
Romans 5:6-11 "For when we were still helpless, Christ died for the wicked at the time that God chose. It is a difficult thing for someone to die for a righteous person. It may even be that someone might dare to die for a good person. But God has shown us how much he loves us---it was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us! By his blood we are now put right with God; how much more, then, will we be saved by him from God's anger! We were God's enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God's friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ's life! But that is not all; we rejoice because of what God has done through our Lord Jesus Christ, who has now made us God's friends."
I cannot blame you if you keep on insisting that you do not believe in Luke or Matthew or Mark and John... because that's what you firmly believe... but you cannot blame me too if I believe their writings because I don't believe it was them who Masterminded the 4 Gospels - but the Holy Spirit.
Not all beliefs are created equal, and one would expect a Holy Spirit to be far more skilled.
[quote=ciko;26325011]“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)
But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out
“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)
“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)
How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones??
Now the Christians have four options to choose from.
1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.
2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.
3. Jesus (pbuh) is a lied that God forsook him.
4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.
You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.
Jesus (pbuh) was forsaken at that moment because He carried upon Himself all the sin of mankind. But after He suffered and his side pierced and all His blood was poured out unto the ground where man was taken from... the Father was satisfied... and as Jesus (pbuh) declared to his disciples before His trial and crucifixion - that sinners will kill Him but on the third day He will rise again. So, it did happen that on the third day, the Father declared Him guiltless and set Him free from the grave - but the death He died, He died for those who will receive and make Him the LORD of their lives. Those who fully surrender to Jesus (pbuh) will be assured of GOD's favor.
I once asked a Muslim scholar why they call their God "Allah"... He replied that when Jesus (pbuh) was hanging on the cross... He cried out, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?" Eloi he continued was equivalent to Allah in Arabic as Jesus the Messiah is Isa Al Massi and Abraham is Ibrahim.
Not all beliefs are created equal, and one would expect a Holy Spirit to be far more skilled.
The Holy Spirit may choose anyone despite his or her frailty to do His will... He can use an unschooled like Peter and John or a scholar like Paul... who wrote in 1Corinthians 1:18-29 "For the message about Christ's death on the cross is nonsense to those who are being lost; but for us who are being saved it is God's power. The scripture says, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and set aside the understanding of the scholars." So then, where does that leave the wise? or the scholars? or the skillful debaters of this world? God has shown that this world's wisdom is foolishness! For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead, by means of the so-called "foolish" message we preach, God decided to save those who believe. Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ, a message that is offensive to the Jews and nonsense to the Gentiles; but for those whom God has called, both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God. For what seems to be God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be God's weakness is stronger than human strength. Now remember what you were, my friends, when God called you. From the human point of view few of you were wise or powerful or of high social standing. God purposely chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise, and he chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the powerful. He chose what the world looks down on and despises and thinks is nothing, in order to destroy what the world thinks is important. This means that no one can boast in God's presence."
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