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Here is my answer to your question, "if God asked you to kill your child, would you do so?....NO!
For none of the reasons you gave but because it was a work of God and not of man.
Here is the scripture that brings it to conclusion: Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
You see, the story of Abraham is the story of God, not sacrificing Issac (Humanity) , but instead the ram in the thicket. Which is Jesus.
So, the picture painted by the story of Abraham is a once and for all time picture of God saving His own creation via His Son Jesus Christ.
The creation of Adam created a condition where free will enabled Adam to be an independent god (lower case g) which resulted in Adam's death, spiritually by separation.
The "once and for all time" sacrifice, Jesus, enabled all of humanity to be spared from the free will death penalty.
Supporting scriptures:Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
In the following verse you will read ..."but now once in the end of the world"...meaning that the end of the world as it was (Lost) has the ram in the ticket appeared to put and end to sin.
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
What other reason would God have to ask any of us to sacrifice our own son?
Blessings, AJ
Peace be with you AJ. Although I am biased in that these believes of Christianity sicken me a bit more than the believes of most of the ancient polytheists I've read about, I must say it is quite comical that Jesus is the ram in the thicket. Might Jesus not be the snake in the tree? or the Fish that swallowed Jonah? I mean, he's the lamb, and the lion, and the dove is him... We might as well talk about the Story of Noah and how he put two of every Jesus on his large boat.
What are you saying anyway? that Abraham stands for God in the story? God listening to himself and then being stopped from his own stupidity by an underling? You said Isaac represents humanity and the ram represents Jesus? What does Abraham represent? I'm sure you'll find something to fit, religion really is that easy after-all.
It is just too funny. Generations have passed, Jesus' words have been proved lies. The birds of the sky go hungry if they don't find food to feed themselves.
God saves humanity through the assisted suicide and human/blood sacrifice of his own son-self to appease his anger?... it's just too much.
How else was Abraham supposed to prove his faith to the invisible voices in his head? Eat lots of chocolate? The point of the story was that Abraham was a very unholy and disturbed man and thus willing to sacrifice Isaac, not that the ram in the thicket was a descendant of Messiah David and died for all the sins of the Gentiles.
Peace be with you AJ. Although I am biased in that these believes of Christianity sicken me a bit more than the believes of most of the ancient polytheists I've read about, I must say it is quite comical that Jesus is the ram in the thicket>>>LuminousTruth
First, I respect your views, on whatever subject, as your own free will choice.
God honors, IMO, anybody’s choice regardless.
However, choices do make a difference on how they affect one’s life style, beliefs and actions; some with dire consequences and others with abundant blessings.
I mean what choice did any of us have in who we are and at what age in human history where given to be born in? To what degree of intelligence were we given and to whether born in a healthy or physical impaired condition; whether to rich parents or poor parents?
Having said all that was to level the playing field to our many differences; race, color, religious beliefs, geographical location, rich poor, good health, poor health, wise, foolish etc. to that of ones own in ability to pre-choose our earthly entrance.
Christianity encompasses all the above in the salvation of the soul of mankind, be it Jew, Christian or any other belief structure that mankind can imagine.
Christianity is the new spiritual creation within the old creation (Flesh) for the express purpose of its salvation.
Enter: Abraham as a picture (Note picture?) of how God the creator managed the creation of all (All) mankind and His ability to save it as well.
Not only is Abraham's story a picture (Similitude of) but also Noah, Joshua’s ushering in to the promised land after the travail of the wilderness journey via Moses, the story of Job and believe it or not, the story of King Pharaoh.
If one wants to just look at the stories as just stories, there is reason to doubt the reality of them. But if one looks for the spiritual significances of those same stories, one will see the hand of God the creators work.
To understand what I am saying, is to see what the spiritual significance means to an un-believer as quoted in a verse in the bible: Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Jesus is using this as an illustration only.
“Dogs and Swine” are metaphors of unlike, different and in ability to change, or better; resist change. Can a dog change it’s ways or a swine wallowing in the mud?
The meaning there is, unless God opens our eyes to see His spiritual side of all those stories, we are as we are.
Let me end this post and open another in my response.
I am asking you to tell me how did you acquire the knowledge justifying your preaching the OT. You need, according to Maimonides, esoteric knowledge in order to understand the OT. Do you have that knowledge and if “yes” how did you get it?
I am called to preach by God. In addition to that, I have had many years of personal study as well as having gone to Seminary.
I don't know who decided Maimonides is the expert. I'm not sure what he meant by "esoteric knowledge".
I am a Christian. When Christ rose from the grave, he proceeded to educate the disciples on the OT -- about how they were about him. By studying the OT, we can see that.
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How would you explain God’s action when he sought to kill Moses (Εχ. 4:24-26)?
God had made a covenant with Abraham -- and the sign of that covenant was circumcision. Moses failed to bring his own son into that covenant, and God was going to discipline him.
What are you saying anyway? that Abraham stands for God in the story? God listening to himself and then being stopped from his own stupidity by an underling? You said Isaac represents humanity and the ram represents Jesus? What does Abraham represent? I'm sure you'll find something to fit, religion really is that easy after-all. >>>LuminousTruth
Abraham is a father to Isaac as God is the Father of all creation.
In the process of creation of the first human being with a will, as limited god, came with a consequence that could not be denied. Death!
Death in that a god, having its own will, can not exist in the spiritual hereafter without first the creators work to do so.
So the story of Abraham depicts Gods work under those conditions and His remedy for it.
Abraham (as pro-creator) father of Isaac is as God Father of all creation.
The process of creation meant death to the created, as in Isaac's fate. (Similar to)
But rather than God the Father sacrificing His creation to the death sentence, as in Isaac, God offers an alternative; the ram.
The Ram, symbolic of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, then takes the place of all creation and is offered in as an Issac in stead, thus sparring the whole of humanity.
Can you find any other way to hope in an after life existence after this one with some surety and peace of mind?
I have no problem understanding your dilemma. Unless Abraham, symbolic of the Creator God, opens your eyes to see into His spiritual matters, you will remain a skeptic.
Proof of that is in the following verse: Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
How is it that I can understand the reason for your unbelief where you can not understand the reason for mine?
The dad claims that the spirit of his dead grandmother instructed him to sacrifice his own child.
This should say it all. As the French say "Viva La Difference" or something to that effect.
Which religion told him his dead grandmother was alive and talking? Which religion guided him to refuse to seek enough psychotherapy. I mean, we could blame this completely on spirituality... or blame it on the combination of things which include the failing mental health system.
First, I respect your views, on whatever subject, as your own free will choice.
Thank you AJ, I appreciate that. However, I don't respect irrespectable views; and I would urge you to do the same.
Quote:
God honors, IMO, anybody’s choice regardless.
However, choices do make a difference on how they affect one’s life style, beliefs and actions; some with dire consequences and others with abundant blessings.
I mean what choice did any of us have in who we are and at what age in human history where given to be born in? To what degree of intelligence were we given and to whether born in a healthy or physical impaired condition; whether to rich parents or poor parents?
These are very deep thoughts, some have tried to explain it with the sins of their parents, others with Karma, others with the recycling policy of heaven, and others with natural happenstance... It is not necessary to blame the Demiurge for every individual existence.
Quote:
Having said all that was to level the playing field to our many differences; race, color, religious beliefs, geographical location, rich poor, good health, poor health, wise, foolish etc. to that of ones own in ability to pre-choose our earthly entrance.
Christianity encompasses all the above in the salvation of the soul of mankind, be it Jew, Christian or any other belief structure that mankind can imagine.
Christianity is the new spiritual creation within the old creation (Flesh) for the express purpose of its salvation.
Enter: Abraham as a picture (Note picture?) of how God the creator managed the creation of all (All) mankind and His ability to save it as well.
This is where I disagree with you on our interpretation. I don't think Abraham is a picture of anything but himself. Even if the Jews did make him up as a picture of their Bramajala, I don't think Abraham was a picture of how the creator managed to create things and save them later instead of sooner.
Quote:
Not only is Abraham's story a picture (Similitude of) but also Noah, Joshua’s ushering in to the promised land after the travail of the wilderness journey via Moses, the story of Job and believe it or not, the story of King Pharaoh.
are you saying these stories weren't legit histories, but stories written with an agenda?
Quote:
If one wants to just look at the stories as just stories, there is reason to doubt the reality of them. But if one looks for the spiritual significances of those same stories, one will see the hand of God the creators work.
To understand what I am saying, is to see what the spiritual significance means to an un-believer as quoted in a verse in the bible: Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Jesus is using this as an illustration only.
“Dogs and Swine” are metaphors of unlike, different and in ability to change, or better; resist change. Can a dog change it’s ways or a swine wallowing in the mud?
If one wants to venerate the stories, they may insert into them anything they wish. From secret codes, to different meanings, to almost anything... the same is true of graven images. If one wants to look at them as just images, there is reason to doubt the reality of them, but if one looks for the spiritual significance in those same graven images, one will see the hand of What-they-wish.
Truly I tell you, the only unbelievers are those who don't understand agnosticism. I would not call you (an unbeliever) a dog or swine, unless it was to insult. Mat 7:6 would apply to how the Christians treated the graven images and Temples of the Hellenes. Yet that which is truly holy cannot be trampled underfoot. Swine and dogs appear to be noble and intelligent creatures, that they would know the true worth of pearls and of human-venerated things.
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The meaning there is, unless God opens our eyes to see His spiritual side of all those stories, we are as we are.
Let me end this post and open another in my response.
Blessings, AJ
The Buddha is the only eye opener, and it has done the Jewish Brahmajala good to open its eyes to reality and seek enlightenment.
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Abraham is a father to Isaac as God is the Father of all creation.
In the process of creation of the first human being with a will, as limited god, came with a consequence that could not be denied. Death!
Death in that a god, having its own will, can not exist in the spiritual hereafter without first the creators work to do so.
So the story of Abraham depicts Gods work under those conditions and His remedy for it.
God... working under conditions beyond his control? I'm not understanding your metaphysics.
Teach me how it is that we are gods (better than human), and how it is that it was not the Brahman's work that first put the obstacle there in the first place.
Quote:
Abraham (as pro-creator) father of Isaac is as God Father of all creation.
The process of creation meant death to the created, as in Isaac's fate. (Similar to)
But rather than God the Father sacrificing His creation to the death sentence, as in Isaac, God offers an alternative; the ram.
The Ram, symbolic of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, then takes the place of all creation and is offered in as an Issac in stead, thus sparring the whole of humanity.
Can you find any other way to hope in an after life existence after this one with some surety and peace of mind?
Blessings, AJ
Dues Pater? The process of creation? how many processes are you limiting your god to? How is Death something that God did not set up? the ram is only symbolic of wild gracing animals, I don't see how a ram is a lamb. Unless you really, really, want to see it that way. Why did Issac not worship the Ram??? Issac should have worshiped the Ram above Dues Pater. After all, the Ram was God anyway. sparring the whole of humanity from what? sparing us from eternal rest? sparing us from returning to where and what we came from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
I have no problem understanding your dilemma. Unless Abraham, symbolic of the Creator God, opens your eyes to see into His spiritual matters, you will remain a skeptic.
Proof of that is in the following verse: Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
How is it that I can understand the reason for your unbelief where you can not understand the reason for mine?
Blessings, AJ
What is this idea of yours about Abraham opening my eyes, are you so incapable? Do you not understand the mechanism of why you believe what you do? why are you a skeptic and critic of me, your brother and equal in equity? Perhaps you must open your eyes to the real matters, so that you stop being a skeptic of the things you are skeptical of. Why not let the god of Egypt open your eyes to their spiritual matters, if you had real and deep faith in them, they would help you believe and understand their perfection, would they not? Why is the most meaningless god (the god that just happened to be there first) known as the holy scarab (note picture?) Khepri, worthy of banishing democracy in heaven and on earth? Until you have faith in these things (hopefully by God opening your eyes) you will remain a skeptic.
Proof of what is in those verses? prof that others in less enlightened times shared your ideas? Kingdoms are for those too weak to have a well run democracy. Yet seeing this post you might not see, and hearing this post you might not understand. But I wish it wasn't that way. If only you convinced yourself through faith, then you would be convinced.
Perhaps now you truly understand the reason for my unbelief because you yourself have unbelief in so many things.
To clarify, I don't understand the reasons for what I see as your mistakes and false believes... the reasons for your beliefs are likely the same as the reasons for the believes of others:
perhaps a lust for immortality,
perhaps an illusion of grandeur,
perhaps a pride for social identity,
perhaps a sloth for existential calm,
perhaps a wrath for universal justice,
perhaps a greed for personal believes,
perhaps an neglect of personal sacrifice,
perhaps an envy of theological contentment,
perhaps an ignorance of complete understanding,
perhaps a faith in your own discernment,
perhaps an attachment to your culture,
perhaps an aversion to other beliefs,
perhaps a doubt of truth on its own,
perhaps a gluttony for guidelines,
perhaps a hope of better things,
perhaps a love for competition
perhaps any combination of other reasons .
.. I myself have believes.
How is it that I can understand the reason for your unbelief where you can not understand the reason for mine?
May the hurtles and blessings in your life be clearer to you.
A sincere regard, LT.
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