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Fortunately, we have a system of checks and balances so that the minority is not at the mercy of the majority. BTW, the U.S. is a representative republic, not a democracy.
And there's that! Thanks to the good people before us.
Why on earth would you think taxing the church will give them power over the government....I get the hell taxed out of me and it certainly doesn't give me any clout with my government...You really should think things through before posting.
Orly? Do you vote? Do you serve on jury duty?
What more do you want? Do you want to run for office?
Just don't confuse Power with force.
I don't know what your money says on it, but mine says, "In God We Trust." All others pay cash. If I pay you and become your source of income, you serve me.
I totally get that but what should we do about the Christians that are trying to undo what's been done with civil rights and equality? Right now there are dozens of bills proposing just that, some take us back 50 years. The right to refuse jobs to based on sexuality, race, right to refuse service as well. Gay marriage repeals, bills allowing states to adopt official Christian religion. Bills to get America to adopt it. Isn't it good that militant atheists cancel out militant Christians so to speak so you don't have to?
Don't you think atheist groups will help bring together voters who don't want this and make them aware of what bills these are attached to? Sure they may attack the city hall with a cross in the yard but there are important ones as well. Do you think their votes aren't needed? That the Christians won't vote for it or fund it if left alone?
I'm not sure what you think is required to keep it comfortable for everyone here in America, or if we need to keep the political hair trimmed at all. Do you think Christian secs are active in changing things back? Or am I exaggerating? To me it seems every year their in the white house or state house trying to get things back to the way they were. It seems they need constant attention. They have a large group of voters, churches promote political agenda every Sunday. There are a lot of churches out there. Don't you think a couple of atheists groups would be a good idea?
I'd just like to hear what you think on this. I'm a little concerned with just ignoring it. IMO, of course. If it wasn't for a few active activist groups I'd never know these issues were attached to these bills. I can't read them daily all day and that is what it would take.
I suppose everyone has a different perspective, areas are different and churches behave differently but in my own little world I'd have to say the grip of the LDS Church on society at large is dramatically loosening. The only major exception is the Gay Marriage issue but attitudes are slowly changing even here... though the LGBT community (which paradoxically is actually quite large here) pulls plenty of counterproductive stunts themselves. Oh whee! Lets go make out like wild men on the Mormon temple grounds and see what happens!
Anyway, to me it seems many (if not most) "militant atheists" see the bogey man (religion) hiding behind every corner and hidden deep in every piece of legislation, just like a Fundie sees the devil everywhere they look! Hyper-vigilance has it's place but it also tends to cause more problems than it solves.
Meanwhile knowledge spreads, fundamentalist ideas are rejected and church rosters shrink daily. Religion itself evolves as it attempts to stay relevant too; most mainstream religions accept basic scientific concepts like a 4.5 billion year old earth and *gasp* evolution as self-evident... unlike a 100 years ago when everybody "knew" world history was laid out in the Bible.
And to be honest, the majority of mainstream religious sects here in America are pretty damn innocuous. There are notable exceptions, and it's never a good idea to entirely let your guard down but we've gotta face the facts... there is absolutely no chance we in America are gonna find ourselves under anything remotely similar to Sharia Law or other repressive theocracy anytime in the foreseeable future. Where is the threat? I just don't see it.
Also, just as I have a right to not believe or participate in organized religion, other people have the right to do so. That's OK.... something doesn't have to be categorically factual to hold value and meaning in people's lives and/or benefit society. Take cash for example; everyone knows your piece of paper that says $1.00 is worth a dollar in goods only because other people believe it does, not because of the intrinsic value of the paper. But because of the belief, some sort of (admittedly imperfect...but then again is anything perfect?) order and organization is maintained and civilization moves forward.
Religion is really no different... and judging by all the posts here from the believers who say they would go on a wild orgy of sex, drugs, booze and murder if there was no god (because then there would be no consequences) it might be better for them to stay believers! Not everyone is ready for a moral life without some institution putting pressure on them to remain moral. Religious institutions are actually cultural evolution in action; they formed and have persisted over thousands of years because they keep more breeding hairless bipedal apes alive than they kill.
The other thing is accomplishing the true goal of a humanity without the need for institutional religion.
You wanna know the fastest way to grow a religion? Start attacking it directly! Inevitably it will cause the hardcore believers to rally and redouble their efforts. Mormonism is a GREAT example of how that happens. It seems most atheist efforts are attacks, not education or understanding and have already given fundies the "demons" to fight against that they're always looking for.
Spreading knowledge and time itself are the only effective solutions to the problem... none of us is going to see religion disappear in our lifetimes no matter how much effort we put into it but we can hasten the process for civilization by becoming teachers instead of being crusaders.
Militant atheists are indeed as bad as ignorant fundies. They both want you to play some game of pick and choose, and it's either you listen to us or them. That clearly voids out all reasonable people which are secularists, which are non-religious but are willing to tolerate religion, and the more reasonable kind of religious which realize that religion is okay in the private sphere just not in the public sphere. The militant atheists don't know what secularism really is. It's not anti-religion it just doesn't want religion mixed into things like government or science. As a pragmatic agnostic I greatly appreciate the great diversity of religions we have in this world, but at the same time I also realize religion has no place with government. Religion is fine as long as lies in the private sphere only and is practiced on a non-discriminatory basis. Atheists are no strangers to ignorance, and they can be just as ignorant as religious fundamentalists. It's secularism not antireligionism we want.
What's a 'militant atheist'? One that's outspoken? Because every time I see the phrase 'militant atheist', it's invariably being served up by those who think atheists should just shut up and sit quietly at the back of the social bus.
Tell you what, show me an atheist walking into a church (instead of a Planned Parenthood clinic) with an automatic weapon and gunning people down. Show me an atheist that plants nail-bombs at a church (rather than the Olympics and gay clubs) to kill and maim.
That's 'militant'.
Refusing to sit down and shut up is not 'militant'. And the use of the phrase, for no reason other than to create a false equivalency, is nonsensical at best.
What's really sad is when acknowledged atheists - usually ones that can't handle the fact that most atheists are of a different political persuasion than themselves - parrot the 'militant atheists' claptrap served up by theists.
What's really sad is when acknowledged atheists - usually ones that can't handle the fact that most atheists are of a different political persuasion than themselves - parrot the 'militant atheists' claptrap served up by theists.
The only thing you don't get is that a significant chunk of the population decrying 'militant atheists' are not religious.
As for militant atheists being as bad as ignorant fundies, I would say both groups are too broad and diverse to make such a comparison. BUT, they do share one very important trait together (in general), and that is they believe in objective truth. Both New Atheists and Christian fundies reject the mainstream view that truth is relative, and that it's wrong to state some beliefs are more wrong than others. This is why both mainstream Christians and mainstream atheists get very uncomfortable when Christians and atheists state that someone else's beliefs are wrong.
There ws or is a video out there (Qualiasoup -now going by the name of Theramin trees.) on Critical thinking. The point is made that a judgement of "But I want to believe both of you" is not helpful. There is also an informal logical falacy of assuming that a midway position between two claims is probably correct.
The correct thing to do is not to take amediating position and not offend anyone, but to assess the claim and put your money on the best bet.
Which by the way is not the one suggested by Blaize Pascal.
This was a great thread from 4 years ago. I liked it a lot.
And for the past 4 years...many of the Atheists here have aptly demonstrated how much all Fundies really are cast from the same mold.
MOF...the most perfervidly proselytized Religion on this board, is The Religion of Atheism.
Good job! Preach on Atheists!
I think the Fundie Atheists make this board...without them, it would be pretty mundane.
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