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Firstly, your analogy is severely flawed. You can see, touch, smell, and hear your wife, directly experiencing her attributes that have caused you to fall in love with her. The same cannot be said of the god you claim to love, therefore you are only assuming that this god is there, from your preconceptions that were formed by how you were raised, where you were raised, and who raised you.
".
Umm, you were not paying attention. My wife is a person, true. But was I talking about her as a person? No. I was talking about love. Something that cannot be proved. Love is what I talked about. I cannot prove the love I have for her. OK? Good. As a side note I was raised in an atheistic house hold. That's two.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Actually, in my experiences, the theist typically ends the discussion with something like, "We'll just agree to disagree." or "I'll pray for you." and will not respond afterward.
Such is how a wise person ends a discussion that is going nowhere. That makes three. With that I say have a good night and sleep well!
Actually, in my experiences, the theist typically ends the discussion with something like, "We'll just agree to disagree." or "I'll pray for you." and will not respond afterward.
Don't forget this one: God works in mysterious ways.... somethings we don't understand.
I think there are people who naturally want to believe in god, and others who don't want to have faith like that. I was brought up by Christian parents and i admire them a lot. Yet I don't believe as they do.
Don't forget this one: God works in mysterious ways.... somethings we don't understand.
Good one, Data. That's exactly the kind of thing an atheist won't accept--in fact it's about the most ridiculous thing because it's a "plan B" explanation. Plan C is what you come up with when God kills good people at a young age. etc etc. You have to find something to explain it, because you want to believe.
Why do atheists think they can argue someone out of belief? Maybe for the same reason that adherents to some religious sects think they can convert people.
I don't know many atheists that think they can or would want to make someone who believes in what they think is true into someone who doubts themselves. Only when it affects them.
I've never known another atheist that says, hey, lets go make some unbelievers. I do know a lot of sarcastic atheists though, and I apologize up front for myself. I honestly forget the blasphemy thing, I don't believe in it so it's not something I'm always aware of. I have to remember that the religious really take that in a bad way.
Maybe young atheists think they can argue the belief out of you, they are like young vampires. Hard to control the urge to suck the belief out of others. (see, just trying to lighten up the mood, it's just a joke) We aren't really that bad, we are a lot like believers without the God.
I think there are people who naturally want to believe in god, and others who don't want to have faith like that. I was brought up by Christian parents and i admire them a lot. Yet I don't believe as they do.
I think that this is definitely something to consider, and something that can be at least as influential as the environment that someone grows up in. I look at my mom's siblings: all six of them raised in the same household, by the same parents... my mom and one of her brothers are devout, one of them less so but still a firm believer, and three of them atheists who assert that they never believed in it. The religious ones say it comes naturally; the atheists say the same thing.
I fall under the same banner... from the time that I could think critically and reason, I simply didn't believe. Even when I would say that I did, it was really mostly out of peer pressure and the real truth was that when I was laying in bed at night thinking about it, I knew the truth... that I just sincerely didn't believe in it. I couldn't, and if I tried, I was merely being dishonest to myself. For me, my atheism is something that comes naturally, and when I embraced it, I felt the world open up with warmth, and felt the oppression lift from my shoulders... much in the same way that someone naturally inclined to faith feels once they've discovered it.
Why do atheists think they can argue a person out of belief?
Why do believers think they can argue a person in to belief?
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I am curious why. I see so often that atheists don't understand why "logic and reason" fail time and time again. Atheists don't get it.
Is that so? So then 5150, do be good enough to tell us what method YOU and other theists use to dismiss mermaids or pixies if you are not coming to the conclusion that they do not exist by using reason and logic to analyse the evidence for or against them. What is the method you use to come to a conclusion on them.
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Also, please note that if your premise is faulty then one's logical reasoning fails. Yes...I am talking about the premise that God Does Not Exist. When you start off with that premise, your "logical" argument fails with us theists who know God is real.
You "know" no such thing. You believe it to be so but as for knowing...no you don't.
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And it sure doesn't help when every piece of evidence is summarily dismissed-like several items I have offered up over the years...
It is dismissed because it is not verifiable. There is no verifiable evidence for your god or any other god. Even the Church knows that and that is why you are instructed to rely on faith. If there were verifiable and testable evidence then faith would not be necessary.
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... all of the nontheists, who became spiritual or Christian, that I personally know and have read about had one thing in common. They were open to new ideas and possibilities.
All the theists that I personally know and have read about who renounced god-belief were the same.
BTW..what are these new ideas and possibilities that you speak of. From what I see, theists are still using the same ideas that they have used for thousands of years; promises of a better life after you have died, threats of everlasting torture if you don't accept and a 2500 year old book that has been proven to be untrustworthy. Do you actually have some new ideas and possibilities other than those I mentioned??
The same could be said about theists. Why would theists think they can argue a person out of disbelief? Atheists generally came to their conclusions based on logic and evidence. Using irrational aruments to try and convert someone is completely useless when that person bases their beliefs on rational thinking.
It is generally their current hobby, eventually they get bored with one person and move on to the next. This is of course my best guess at an answer.
Ahhhnnnddd... there it is!
√ If you can't beat 'em, then insult their approach.
√ Deflect any reasonable argument or debate.
√ Do NOT acknowledge nor answer any simple Yes/No questions from honest and polite atheists, and finally...
√ Go back to repeating, ad infinitum and ad nauseum, all the standard talking points you unthinkingly harvest from Answers in Genesis, or The Discovery Institute or The Institute for Creation Research
√ To which I'll inquire, politely, for a list of their "Research Projects", including their Methods and Materials section, the documented and peer-reviewed and publishable conclusive results, and so on. Please? Pretty Please?
Thought not.
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
For me, my atheism is something that comes naturally, and when I embraced it, I felt the world open up with warmth, and felt the oppression lift from my shoulders... much in the same way that someone naturally inclined to faith feels once they've discovered it.
I have to agree, 415_s2k; my own devout Christianity, which I unfailingly had my teenaged years constrained by, was eventually lost through an unintentional but obviously throught self-evaluation and initially fearful asking of simple questions, including fervent prayers for God to answer some, one or heck; any of my prayers.
Well, we know what happens to those, huh? Nada. Unless, of course, one needs a positive response, but if that is not forthcoming as required, then its the old GWIMW (God works in myst..etc .etc.)
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Why do believers think they can argue a person in to belief?
So then 5150, do be good enough to tell us what method YOU and other theists use to dismiss mermaids or pixies...
What is the method you use to come to a conclusion on them.
You "know" no such thing. You believe it to be so but as for knowing...no you don't.
It is dismissed because it is not verifiable. There is no verifiable evidence for your god or any other god. Even the Church knows that and that is why you are instructed to rely on faith. If there were verifiable and testable evidence then faith would not be necessary.
All the theists that I personally know and have read about who renounced god-belief were the same.
BTW..what are these new ideas and possibilities that you speak of. Do you actually have some new ideas and possibilities other than those I mentioned??
I happily agree, Rafius! I'd love to see (and have repeatedly asked for, as a matter of record here...) the Christian point-form arguments, as well as any new stuff they can bring to this endless philosophical par-teh!!.
[Here: this may be the v. best current example… The revelation, just this past week, of the new idea of [whayyttt fur this'un! It'll knock yur sox'off!]
Intelligent Falling as a retort & rebuttal to the Laws of Gravity. Honest! God directs each and every sub-atomic particle, quark, ion or prion, every durned micro-molecule, dust mote, cat hair and bit of asbestos brake dust to fall "down".
Heck: that all sounds reasonable to me as a once grad-student in geology, yup it does!! Example? Let's consider the total number of bits of eroded rock that are falling, under God's specific direction, the total of all erosion, slight earthquake tremors, and various bits of rock in, let's say, just 1/10th of one square mile of the mountain sides of the Himalayas, for an also very short 1/10th of one second. Got the idea?
Here: read it and weep/cry/go get a very large glass of vodka and drink it as a toast to (some..) men's vastly delusionary abilities! Cheers!
Wait now: what is that in this URL: "evangelical-scientists"?? Huh? Now there's a delusion right off the bat, eh wot?
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V. easy rejoinder!
