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Hinn and his kindred are not fundamental Christians, they are fundamental scam artists. The King James does not teach tithing for Christians and neither did Jesus or Paul. The mention of tithing by Jesus was when He was telling a Jewish Pharisee what he should do as a strict Jew. No Christian was ever told to tithe. Paul's collection of offerings was not a tithe but a relief effort for the Christians going through hard times and persecution in Jerusalem.
I am saddened that you have allowed these false teachers to cause you to doubt the truth of God's Word. Swedenbourg was a mystic, not a Christian. Please be careful; Eternity is a long time. Not all will be saved. Universalism is a false teaching.
Yes, but 99.9% of Christians don't know that Jesus and Paul didn't teach tithing. I respect that a church needs money to survive today, but even in the half-way respectable churches like Bayless Conley's Cottonwood he's not forthcoming about it. There's always little hints like, "When you give your best to God first you reap His rewards a hundredfold." I hear little hints all throughout his sermons. And I should clarify, I only watch Bayless because I believe he's the ONLY half-way decent tele- out there. But I do it for my S.O.'s sake, she's a baby Christian. Why doesn't Bayless just come out and say, "Look, guys, the Bible doesn't require you to tithe but we do need the money to operate so your best offering would be greatly appreciated." The reason why? Because the church Board would fire his *** faster than you could blink if he did speak the truth. The second organization comes into religion, and we call that fundamentalism, the entire thing gets corrupted. That's why fundamentalism so heavily promotes eternal damnation. Because the only way they know how to scare people into obeying them and doing what they want is to terrify them into doing so with threats of burning forever in hell. That's a known fact. In fact, Bideshi, whether you know it or not, that's exactly what you're doing to me now, although you're being a gentleman/woman about it. "Be careful, Thrillobyte, universalism is wrong and eternity is a long time" (to burn in hell, right?)
We can't debate this because it is not the Christianity forum and they've banned debates on ET vs UR even over there. I will just say that two among dozens of verses solidly supporting universal redemption come to my mind, Psalm 30:5 "For His anger lasts only a moment, but His mercy, a lifetime." and James James 2:13 "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
I know the standard fundamentalist response, "Context, context, context. God is referring to people here on earth, not after we die." Sorry. I don't buy it. Psalm 136: "Oh give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy endures forever." If God stays angry at sinners who are burning forever in hell then His word is a lie, true? Because His anger does endure forever.
To clarify, I don't doubt God's word. Jesus died and arose to save us from our sins. I firmly believe that and so did Swedenborg. In his writings he firmly taught that one must accept Jesus as the Son of God in order to achieve heaven. And he did teach that people would go to hell, just not the flame-and-fire, screaming in torment for eternity kind. Cheers.
Don't mean to have a sinful attitude about this but I've come to detest anything that smacks of Fundamentalist Christianity. Christian fundamentalists are the scum of the earth, I've come to believe with their fright tactics of eternal torment to scare fools into tithing to them to make them wealthy (Hinn, Crouches, Jakes, Dollar, Meyers, Copeland and the rest of that motley crew over at TBN), their prosperity gospel that not giving money to them is robbing God and will send you to hell to burn in flames for eternity(ugh!), that we are almost in the tribulation and the rapture is just around the corner (like it has been for the last 2000 years) and so it is more vital than every that you give more and more money to help them get the word out that Armageddon is almost upon us; and their narrow-minded beliefs that they are God's chosen and that everyone else outside their tight-knit community is going straight to hell to burn for eternity.
So I divorced myself completely and utterly from anything that sniffs of it. I stay away from organized corporate religious institutions; don't read the King James or any later editions of the "inerrant" Bible that is so full of holes it leaks like a trough riddled with buckshot; don't get anywhere near televangelists.
I feel so clean now it's like I took a 10-hour shower with the strongest antibacterial soap on the market.
I embrace Swedenborgism which makes the most sense to me with its universal idealism. Still keep Jesus as my Lord and Savior and that's about all I take out of the Bible. The rest is hash and just grist for endless debates that lead nowhere.
Feels good. Finally.
While I completely respect the journey you've been on and am happy you feel "so clean" - YAY! - I think you'll be more of what God is calling you to be when you can state your feelings without the need for any animosity or disgust for anyone else
In other words, calling fundamentalists Christians "scum of the earth" is not nice, appropriate, accurate or the behavior of someone who truly follows Jesus.
So now you have equated Christianity with Televangelism?
Just because people on television proclaim to be Christians doesn't make them actually uphold the principles of Christianity any more than political pundits on talk radio being representative of the basic freedoms in the Bill of Rights.
If you want to talk about people in anything for the money, you've described basically the root of all evil of the world. And the money changers at the heart of it all, should be your concern. Those who can make money out of thin air, backed without any tangible asset.
No, televangelism is just a part of the whole problem of making merchandise out of God's word. The scriptures stayed pure until Constantine rolled into town and attempted to merge paganism with Christianity in an effort to bring peace to all the warring factions. Constantine was about as Christian as the man in the moon. He stayed faithful to his pagan gods right up to his deathbed and them made a public proclamation of his conversion right before he died so as to attempt to bring the two sides together. What we got, however, was a Bible riddled with pagan myth disguised as holy doctrine, such as the doctrine of eternal torment. It's a historical fact that eternal torment was never part of the early Christian theology until roughly 300AD when Tertullian, Justinian, Augustine and others of their ilk came on the scene to try to keep the masses in line by threatening them with burning for all eternity if they disobeyed the church leaders and the emperors. It certainly worked. No one dared let out a peep against them because of fear of going to hell. What did they know?! The unwashed masses were just ignorant dupes who believed anything their "spiritual fathers" threw at them. And so it's been right up until this very day. Jerks like Matt Slick and every TBN apostle still push it to keep the power of the corporate church structure in place. Did you know that Matt Slick lets just about every heresy onto his website. The one doctrine he won't let on is universal redemption. Why? Because the others don't represent threats to corporate fundamentalism; they're just minor annoyances that he tolerates. Universal redemption represents a real threat to the corporate church structure and that's why it is so vehemently condemned as heresy. Imagine, something good like the idea of universal redemption that makes God look good and merciful, that makes the good news of the gospels truly good news, and it's roundly condemned. Eternal torment is responsible for chasing more people away from Christianity than any other force. And people blindly follow this heresy simply because they're too lazy to really investigate the scriptures like a few of us have who are now universalists. And I'm not talking about the universalism that embraces all roads to heaven. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And people who live evil lives here WILL pay in hell in fire and torment. The only difference between us and the other universalists is that we believe that the torment doesn't last forever; that God will bring everyone to repentance sooner or later and then God will be all in all when every last soul is saved and sin is wiped from the universe.
ooops, I went on a tangent. We weren't supposed to debate this ET vs UR nonsense. Mods, forgive me.
While I completely respect the journey you've been on and am happy you feel "so clean" - YAY! - I think you'll be more of what God is calling you to be when you can state your feelings without the need for any animosity or disgust for anyone else
In other words, calling fundamentalists Christians "scum of the earth" is not nice, appropriate, accurate or the behavior of someone who truly follows Jesus.
Just think about it
You're right. i tend to get carried away at times and I apologize. I retract that statement. If you'll notice I wasn't referring to everyone who's fundamentalist, just the leaders basically. But I do get irritated as "hell" when they come up to me and say, "If you don't change your thinking you are going to go to hell and burn for all eternity". That really sets me off.
PS You're a very nice person , Mountains. I wish all fundamentalists were like you.
While I completely respect the journey you've been on and am happy you feel "so clean" - YAY! - I think you'll be more of what God is calling you to be when you can state your feelings without the need for any animosity or disgust for anyone else
In other words, calling fundamentalists Christians "scum of the earth" is not nice, appropriate, accurate or the behavior of someone who truly follows Jesus.
Just think about it
He's just following Jesus' example.
Math. 23. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean....33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
I must confess I come on too strong because I too have been the victim of early Catholic upbringing and all this hell nonsense and it has scarred me like many others. Writing all this out is a form of therapy for me, to help me to free my mind from this silliness.
And AREQUIPA, you're right. I'm just trying to call these modern day Pharisees out into the light but they keep scattering and running under the sink and refrigerator like cockroaches.
I feel so clean now it's like I took a 10-hour shower with the strongest antibacterial soap on the market.
I embrace Swedenborgism which makes the most sense to me with its universal idealism. Still keep Jesus as my Lord and Savior and that's about all I take out of the Bible. The rest is hash and just grist for endless debates that lead nowhere.
Feels good. Finally.
You can have a meaningful relationship with God (and not go totally atheist), and still get away from crazy "I'm going to hell if I don't believe my preacher." Good for you.
I like Swedenborg, my own faith was heavily influenced by a book written by him.
Eternity isn't a long time, whoever said that (on the first page somewhere). It's not time at all. And God cares for our hearts and our freedom. Not our pocketbook. The "cheerful givers" thing is used to death, but an absolute being doesn't care about temporary things (gold is valuable only because we puny mortals assign it value, if fate was a bit different, pyrite would be valuable) but things like loving people and commitment. As for universalism...
Quote:
"For as in Adam ALL die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive."
I don't even like Paul (I think he was a latecomer to the party, and that stupidity with women having to wear hats). But Peter agrees with him.
Quote:
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 06-05-2013 at 03:54 PM..
You can have a meaningful relationship with God (and not go totally atheist), and still get away from crazy "I'm going to hell if I don't believe my preacher." Good for you.
I like Swedenborg, my own faith was heavily influenced by a book written by him.
Eternity isn't a long time, whoever said that (on the first page somewhere). It's not time at all. And God cares for our hearts and our freedom. Not our pocketbook. The "cheerful givers" thing is used to death, but an absolute being doesn't care about temporary things (gold is valuable only because we puny mortals assign it value, if fate was a bit different, pyrite would be valuable) but things like loving people and commitment. As for universalism...
I don't even like Paul (I think he was a latecomer to the party, and that stupidity with women having to wear hats). But Peter agrees with him.
Actually, this "Christian Lite" has no more validity than fundamentalism. Neither has any evidence for it's claims and no redeeming qualities. (Pardon the Pun)
No, televangelism is just a part of the whole problem of making merchandise out of God's word. The scriptures stayed pure until Constantine rolled into town and attempted to merge paganism with Christianity in an effort to bring peace to all the warring factions. Constantine was about as Christian as the man in the moon. He stayed faithful to his pagan gods right up to his deathbed and them made a public proclamation of his conversion right before he died so as to attempt to bring the two sides together. What we got, however, was a Bible riddled with pagan myth disguised as holy doctrine, such as the doctrine of eternal torment. It's a historical fact that eternal torment was never part of the early Christian theology until roughly 300AD when Tertullian, Justinian, Augustine and others of their ilk came on the scene to try to keep the masses in line by threatening them with burning for all eternity if they disobeyed the church leaders and the emperors. It certainly worked. No one dared let out a peep against them because of fear of going to hell. What did they know?! The unwashed masses were just ignorant dupes who believed anything their "spiritual fathers" threw at them. And so it's been right up until this very day. Jerks like Matt Slick and every TBN apostle still push it to keep the power of the corporate church structure in place. Did you know that Matt Slick lets just about every heresy onto his website. The one doctrine he won't let on is universal redemption. Why? Because the others don't represent threats to corporate fundamentalism; they're just minor annoyances that he tolerates. Universal redemption represents a real threat to the corporate church structure and that's why it is so vehemently condemned as heresy. Imagine, something good like the idea of universal redemption that makes God look good and merciful, that makes the good news of the gospels truly good news, and it's roundly condemned. Eternal torment is responsible for chasing more people away from Christianity than any other force. And people blindly follow this heresy simply because they're too lazy to really investigate the scriptures like a few of us have who are now universalists. And I'm not talking about the universalism that embraces all roads to heaven. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And people who live evil lives here WILL pay in hell in fire and torment. The only difference between us and the other universalists is that we believe that the torment doesn't last forever; that God will bring everyone to repentance sooner or later and then God will be all in all when every last soul is saved and sin is wiped from the universe.
ooops, I went on a tangent. We weren't supposed to debate this ET vs UR nonsense. Mods, forgive me.
Heh....now we get down to it. You realize the reason that Matt won't let universalists post on CARM is because of some really horrible treatment that he's gotten from them? Yah....they have been pretty crude to him. He ticks atheists off something fierce and even they aren't as mean as the unies.
Heh....now we get down to it. You realize the reason that Matt won't let universalists post on CARM is because of some really horrible treatment that he's gotten from them? Yah....they have been pretty crude to him. He ticks atheists off something fierce and even they aren't as mean as the unies.
Interesting. I didn't know the reasons he dislikes uni's so intensely is that he's gotten some rough treatment from them. I thought his dislike stemmed strictly from doctrinal differences.
See, the thing is, nearly all uni's like myself were once ET'ers who just happened to be willing to delve a little into the scriptures to see what they really say about damnation. When we started uncovering verses like, "ALL shall be made alive" and "God will have everyone saved" and "God is the savior of ALL men" we did a double-take and said, "Wait a minute. I was always taught that baloney that God is infinite, therefore a sin against an infinite God requires an infinite punishment", nevermind that nowhere in the Bible is that nonsense mentioned---it's just a man-made doctrine to justify eternal torment when ET'er are confronted with scriptures like the ones I mentioned above and dozens others.
So a few ET'ers who are willing to study the topic make the switch, but the vast majority of fundamentalists hold their ground and resist any attempts by uni's to show them the scriptures, instead threatening them with "You're going to go to hell and burn for all eternity if you keep on this path". On the other hand, I've never seen a uni go over to ET. Wonder why.
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