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You misunderstand the problem. It is clear in the NT that the return of Jesus, the last days and the bringing of the all the promised nasties would be in their day. I know that apologists are very clever at reinterpreting scripture and translation - shopping to try to make what seems to be saying that some would still be alive when it happened to mean something else, but the sense of nothing else mattering much (Paul has this, too) but getting oneself spiritually packed and ready for it is inherent in the NT.
Luke is already having to reinvent this promised 'Kingdom' to mean a churchfull of people having faith. which of course doesn't alter the fact that this promised return is still expected and has been since the 1st millennium when a panicked christian population handed over all their wealth to the church ready in exchange for a ticket to salvation.
As I recall, when the vouchers failed to be redeemed, no moneys were refunded.
There was a minor flurry in the 2nd millennium but nobody really expected the world to end, nor on any of the many, many occasions when the end of the world was announced. The promise or threat has worn darn thin and the idea of imminent return has just gone on far too long. It has become a bit of a joke.
Of course you may say we won't laugh when it happens and the boy who cried wolf was right, eventually, when everyone had stopped believing him.
To that I say, that it doesn't matter because I am sure that Jesus never promised or predicted anything of the kind and probably never said a single word of what is ascribed to him in the gospels, and the promises of a second coming were dreamed up a couple of decades later.
t is clear in the NT that the return of Jesus, the last days and the bringing of the all the promised nasties would be in their day. I know that apologists are very clever at reinterpreting scripture and translation - shopping to try to make what seems to be saying that some would still be alive when it happened to mean something else, but the sense of nothing else mattering much (Paul has this, too) but getting oneself spiritually packed and ready for it is inherent in the NT.
Indeed. So much of Christian dogma (and mind you, we're only talking about a particular school of interpretation here; remember we have, pre-, post- and amillennialism and various other permutations tacked onto all of those) is just a lot of cherry picking. To wit:
1) Jesus is coming any minute vs "to god, a day is a thousand years and a thousand years but a day"
2) God will take care of you, just trust him vs god moves in mysterious ways or sometimes tests us
3) If you have a tiny amount of faith you can move entire mountains vs "er, sometimes the answer is 'no' or 'later'".
In other words, we make promises but hand-wave them away when they aren't kept, hiding behind the sovereignty or all-knowingness or ineffable nature of god. In yet other words, we can understand god but we can't understand god, his promises are sure but only via some baroque and ever-changing interpretation thereof, etc.
What I find hilarious about non-believers is the fact that they think 2000 years is a long time. How old is the universe? Exactly.
So just because Jesus hasn't returned in 2000 years, they think he won't come back someday. 2000 years might as well be 2 milliseconds in the big picture.
In any case, for "free-thinkers", they sure like to tread on other people's beliefs pretty easily. Practice what you preach... pun intended.
So "soon", "this generation", "some of you standing here" is now "someday"?
So "soon", "this generation", "some of you standing here" is now "someday"?
Pretty convenient doncha think?
About as convenient as labeling something as wrong, simply because it doesn't conform to your beliefs. Stop having a double standard and let people believe whatever they want.
About as convenient as labeling something as wrong, simply because it doesn't conform to your beliefs. Stop having a double standard and let people believe whatever they want.
Ooops. Here's Mr. Pot, popping up his ugly head to Mr. Kettle. I guess we atheists need to withdraw our propose amendment to allow only the people who we believe should marry to marry. Oh wait, that's not us. Maybe its the N.C. statute that only people of our belief can hold office. No, that can't be it, that statute prohibits only atheists. I'm sorry I can't remember the legislation that making everyone behave like atheists. Maybe you can refresh my memory JSUN.
About as convenient as labeling something as wrong, simply because it doesn't conform to your beliefs. Stop having a double standard and let people believe whatever they want.
You mistake allowing people to believe what they want to injecting these beliefs to discriminate against other folk who do not share their delusions into politics and education. You will find no objections to pacifist believers, it is the bat crazy ones we have issues with.
Normal decorum would be to keep politics and religious views private but here we are on a - wait for it - discussion forum. The pat yourself on the back attaboy ones are one of the six above.
I know what I post burns folk as I know exactly what they believe and why as I once was one of them. Helping folk out of this meaningless mindtrap is why I post here on occasion.
About as convenient as labeling something as wrong, simply because it doesn't conform to your beliefs. Stop having a double standard and let people believe whatever they want.
Words have meanings. Is it you or Seeker who are twisting them to mean something contrary to their specific and clear original intent? Which of you is inventing meanings out of thin air to "conform to their beliefs?" There's just no wiggle room with "this generation" and "some of you standing here".
As far as "letting people believe whatever they want" ... I think it's very safe to say that no one here, myself included, wants to do anything other than live and let live. But that is not the point of this discussion, which is happening in order to render our respective (lack of) belief explicable to each other. This requires honest engagement and discussion. You can't expect us to understand how you reconcile "some of you standing here" with "2000 years later" by some hand-waving dismissal and accusation of double standards and that we're not letting you believe what you want. If you just want to come out and say "I believe it anyway" or "there must be some way to reconcile this but I don't know what it is" then at least that would be honest and we would happily leave you to your unsubstantiated belief that Jesus was not really saying what he was saying. Heck, most of us don't even believe Jesus really said that or that he really existed in the first place. What skin is it off our back if we let you have your contradictions? But you are standing here in a public forum and claiming there's no contradiction at all. That is the problem.
Ooops. Here's Mr. Pot, popping up his ugly head to Mr. Kettle. I guess we atheists need to withdraw our propose amendment to allow only the people who we believe should marry to marry. Oh wait, that's not us. Maybe its the N.C. statute that only people of our belief can hold office. No, that can't be it, that statute prohibits only atheists. I'm sorry I can't remember the legislation that making everyone behave like atheists. Maybe you can refresh my memory JSUN.
It must boggle your mind and give you cold sweats that a believer in Jesus can have libertarian views.
About as convenient as labeling something as wrong, simply because it doesn't conform to your beliefs. Stop having a double standard and let people believe whatever they want.
You line seems to be the one which advises us to shut up and go away plus the suggestion that we are somehow wrong and even despicable for daring to disagree with the claims of religion in saying that the claims about the 2nd coming should be taken as read and they have failed to pan out.
It would no doubt suit you very well for religion to be left a clear field to assure the doubters that this generation really means humanity at large however long it takes ..and so on... and can well do without those who dare to express a contrary view. Double standards on whose part did you say?
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