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I challange you to read a bible but I guess that would be too much to ask for fear of being convinced otherwise. It goes both ways. Choosing to believe in God does not make someone iggnorant. But a statment insinuating that very thing does.
Evolution is NOT a proven fact, just a widely accepted one. It's a theroy nothing more. To someone who has not been brought up in a Christian environment it would seem very easy and believable for evolution to explain how we all got here. But to those of us who have been enlightened can see that someone else (a higher being) planned all of this and us.
What makes you think I HAVEN'T read the Bible? Because I'm not a believer? I may not be able to quote every scripture like the Pledge of Allegiance but I have most certainly read the Bible. In fact, I think you might be surprised at how many of we evolutionists have read the Bible.
Second of all. Evolution is a theory in the same sense that Atomic Theory is a theory or the Theory of Gravity is a theory. A theory in science is one that explains through critically robust methodologies and empirical criticism a certain mechanism.
My point in my previous post and now this post is this:
If you wanted to learn about gravity or atomic theory or any other branch of science you'd probably head to your local college for a class on it. Why do people insist on heading to their church to try and learn about how to refute evolution? If you wanted to dispute E=MC2 you'd probably immerse yourself first in the writings and theories of Einstein not Pope Benedict. I don't see why people feel the need to come onto a thread, try and assert clearly unscientific views as to what they THINK evolution says, and then hide behind "Because I believe in God." That's the most presumptuously stupid piece of logic I have ever heard which is why I challenged people to read Origins of Species or Finding Darwin's God. It's not about trying to dissuade you from a belief in God but being able to discuss things in a manner that doesn't consist of repeated lies and canards from an agendic viewpoint that TRULY doesn't understand how the theory works. Or, perhaps they do realize how obvious it is and how it works and that's why they feel the need to spread lies about it. Interesting...
..I also feel that our school systems fail to present it in a manner that is acceptable to people and in a way that they can understand it. What I mean by that is it is my understanding that evolution is one of the last things taught in science class, and in particular, biology but it seems that religious-based organizations are trying to pick up where the schools are failing and insert their own brand of science with inaccurate information. I'm sorry, it's just not science because that's what your church says.
I wasn't taught the theory either in public school or church. I don't know how I slipped through the cracks, but my science class didn't teach it, and I never really heard about it in church, just the usual stuff about sin etc.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I'm a firm believer that you can hold a belief in God and evolution simultaneously even though I am not one of those people. Evolution does not seek to explain the origins of life and/or the universe.
Yes you can, but it seems that any hybrid or overlapping beliefs are not popular nowadays. Either you are an atheist evolutionist, or a christian creationist. If you call yourself somewhere inbetween, apparently you lose credibility because you are not hardcore enough.
I wasn't taught the theory either in public school or church. I don't know how I slipped through the cracks, but my science class didn't teach it, and I never really heard about it in church, just the usual stuff about sin etc.
Actually, I hear about that more and more. It seems that teachers are just downright scared to even bring it up because of the backlash from parents so it seems they try and avoid it altogether.
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Originally Posted by chiaroscuro
Yes you can, but it seems that any hybrid or overlapping beliefs are not popular nowadays. Either you are an atheist evolutionist, or a christian creationist. If you call yourself somewhere inbetween, apparently you lose credibility because you are not hardcore enough.
I agree that there does seem to be a certain amount of animosity from both sides on the argument. I think what a lot of people fail to realize (probably on both sides) is that an understanding of evolution doesn't really have much to do with a deity. If you think about it in the simplest format, why WOULD it have anything to do with any sort of God?! It seems much more divine that instead of making something appear out of thin air that it guided a process of slow evolutionary change to give us humankind. I can't say that it's very awe-inspiring or even thought provoking that a deity just snapped his fingers and there we were. I often hear from the devoutly religious side that science is God's way of showing us how his world works. Well, in all honesty, a random "poofing" seems to take away any aspect that this creator would want us to have. Rather, I find it more awe-inspiring that something could be so devilishly (no pun intended) laid out to make us realize that he was able to guide 3.5 billion years of life to put us in our present day position. That seems entirely more powerful than a wiggle of a nose or an instantaneous creation.
Yes, I am an Atheist, but that doesn't mean I'm so closed-minded to the Christian perspective either. I CAN tell you that if I woke up tomorrow and was struck with some sort of divine feeling that it would not sway me in the slightest to recognize that evolution is indeed still a fact.
My point in my previous post and now this post is this:
If you wanted to learn about gravity or atomic theory or any other branch of science you'd probably head to your local college for a class on it. Why do people insist on heading to their church to try and learn about how to refute evolution? If you wanted to dispute E=MC2 you'd probably immerse yourself first in the writings and theories of Einstein not Pope Benedict. I don't see why people feel the need to come onto a thread, try and assert clearly unscientific views as to what they THINK evolution says, and then hide behind "Because I believe in God." That's the most presumptuously stupid piece of logic I have ever heard which is why I challenged people to read Origins of Species or Finding Darwin's God. It's not about trying to dissuade you from a belief in God but being able to discuss things in a manner that doesn't consist of repeated lies and canards from an agendic viewpoint that TRULY doesn't understand how the theory works. Or, perhaps they do realize how obvious it is and how it works and that's why they feel the need to spread lies about it. Interesting...
Nah, the vast majority don't realize how it works, because they would have to actually read some science as you say, and not refute everything with the Bible. That's the futility of trying to have a rational discussion with Creationists (or the pseudo-creationist ID'ers)--it's not feasible when one side is arguing from divine faith and ancient myth, and the other from scientific method.
Not to mention most Creationists display their profound ignorance of science by invariably using the naive "It's only a theory" argument, and they constantly conflate the Big Bang and/or ideas about the origin of life on Earth with evolutionary theory. (The ID'ers at least try to refute evolution itself, with that irreducible complexity thing which derives from the old Argument from Design as explicated by Paley 200 years ago--it's humorous that ID proponents advance their "theory" as "new".)
Although evolutionary theory does not say anything about God's existence, there is a deep fear (based in ignorance) of having one's basis for existence threatened, so staunch believers will believe, no matter how many rational arguments you put forth, and they will continue to use the wrong-headed argument that evolution must contradict religious belief.
You fight a losing battle when your opponent has a fire-breathing purple dragon in his garage (Carl Sagan's metaphor), and there is truly no way you can prove otherwise, nor can you smite it with reason.
Teresa
Last edited by Mozart271; 05-17-2008 at 05:49 AM..
Nah, the vast majority don't realize how it works, because they would have to actually read some science as you say, and not refute everything with the Bible. That's the futility of trying to have a rational discussion with Creationists (or the pseudo-creationist ID'ers)--it's not feasible when one side is arguing from divine faith and ancient myth, and the other from scientific method.
Not to mention most Creationists display their profound ignorance of science by invariably using the naive "It's only a theory" argument, and they constantly conflate the Big Bang and/or ideas about the origin of life on Earth with evolutionary theory. (The ID'ers at least try to refute evolution itself, with that irreducible complexity thing which derives from the old Argument from Design as explicated by Paley 200 years ago--it's humorous that ID proponents advance their "theory" as "new".)
You fight a losing battle when your opponent has a fire-breathing purple dragon in his garage (Carl Sagan's metaphor), and there is truly no way you can prove otherwise, nor can you smite it with reason.
Teresa
I do realize that and I agree with everything you just said. I suppose it just frustrates me because I don't think Creationists or ID'ers are stupid people. I think that there is a lot of willful ignorance in all of this out of fear of something. What that something is I am not entirely sure of. Personally, I lean towards thinking it's a fear of actually understanding Darwin's theory(ies) and feeling like they must then choose Atheism. I know, it sounds absurd, but I think that when it's drilled into your head from churches and parents from a young age that evolutionary science requires one to be an atheist or that evolutionists are killing religion or other people it's as if people become scared to death of it.
The ignorance of the theory truly shows in their references to the Big Bang or other scientific theories that have no bearing on the matter. I suppose I just like self-inflicted pain from banging my head on the wall when I converse on this forum.
Personally, I lean towards thinking it's a fear of actually understanding Darwin's theory(ies) and feeling like they must then choose Atheism. I know, it sounds absurd, but I think that when it's drilled into your head from churches and parents from a young age that evolutionary science requires one to be an atheist or that evolutionists are killing religion or other people it's as if people become scared to death of it.
Yep. And I read somewhere that among Americans, surveys have shown that atheists are more hated than any other single category of people, so it's small wonder.
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I suppose I just like self-inflicted pain from banging my head on the wall when I converse on this forum.
Yep. And I read somewhere that among Americans, surveys have shown that atheists are more hated than any other single category of people, so it's small wonder.
Imagine how easy it would be to willfully be ignorant of something in order to better get along with all of your society...
Those are people who believed that there had to be some form of intelligence aside from man, which was behind the creation of the planet.
Which has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. And including Einstein in that list is pretty misleading - he didn't believe in any sort of supernatural beings running the universe.
And I think you'd have problems with the theology of some of the others on this list as well, unless you're simultaneously both a unitarian and trinitarian Christan, and at the same time a Jewish atheist.
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Do I believe that there is proof for evolution? Yes I do. Maybe not to the extremes that people like to take it to, but yes, I believe in the proven forms of evolution.
I also believe that DNA doesn’t prove evolution as a whole; if it did it wouldn’t be a theory anymore. Would it?
Nothing in science is proven - that's not how inductive logic works.
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Have I ever once said, I am in agreement with the biblical creation theory, no I haven't, but I love the assumptions? I am just simply amused by the lack of flexibility and open-mindedness of people who claim to be so flexible and open minded. This is not directed directly at any one person, so don’t get defensive. It interests me.
I am more interested in bringing the other side of things to the table than I am to actually voicing my own opinion, why, because my opinion is exactly that and I am of too sound of mind to be swayed by any arguments.
OK, I'll stop making assumptions. What specifically do you propose? Without knowing that I can't really comment on whether or not it's reasonable to discard your ideas based on the evidence or not.
It's pretty easy to snipe from the sidelines without disclosing what you actually believe, but much harder to propose something concrete that can be discussed. Scientists are obviously up to the task by their development of the theory of evolution. Are you?
KC, I love how you seem to be personally attacking me for my belief. You act as though I must be some kind of cultish, idiot to believe in creationism. Very open minded of you! For your information, I do not "blindly" follow anything like some dumb robot. I have my beliefs which I have at times questioned but always come back to stronger than ever,as you obviously have yours. At least I have more class than to personally attack someone who is simply sharing their opinion on what started out as a poll.
I guess this means you can't find any evidence to back up your claims that scientists are intentionally perpetuating a fraud on our nation's school children? Attempting to hide behind the "my innocent faith is being attacked by mean scientists" would be more convincing if you didn't come in here and accuse a bunch of people you've never met of lying.
Nice try, I'm not falling for it.
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By the way creationism is based on much much more than a few bible stories, which I doubt you have ever even read. So educate yourself on both side of the topic, or do you just blindly follow your own ever changing scientific "theroies"??
I've read both of the creation stories in the Bible. Neither mutually contradictory story lines up with the evidence. It's a nice myth with some interesting moral implications, but it's not a science text.
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