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Some Christians claim that God gave people free will because he wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to (not because they were forced to).
But is that really so?
Imagine that someone is pointing a gun at you and says: choose me or I'll shoot you. And the person will say: ok, I choose you. So does that mean that person chose him because he wanted to or because he really did not have a choice? (I mean death was not considered a choice in this case).
It's not a choice. It's blackmail.
In Christian teachings, God says: choose me, or else you'll be tortured for eternity.
So, when people do end up choosing God, it's most likely because they didn't want to be tortured for eternity. So in this case, God did not accomplish his goal, people did not choose him because they wanted to. If God truly wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to, the only way to do that would be to give them 2 good choices. Chose me or not choose me and good things will happen to you in both cases.
So therefore, the argument that God gave people free will to choose Him willingly can't be true.
So then, why did God gave people free will? Knowing that most will end up in hell?
It doesn't seem to serve God. It doesn't seem to serve people. What good is free will again?
The only thing that free will accomplishes is that most people will go to hell (according to Jesus' words: many are chosen, but few will be saved)
Therefore, free will is not a gift, but a curse. And it makes no one happy. Unless God WANTED most people to go to hell.
So then why did God give people free will?
I think you'll have to find another explanation because this one doesn't work. Although I couldn't find any.
In annihilation theory - choose me and live and not choose me and die - it's still a forced choice. In universalism, no matter what you do, you'll be saved, it's like there is no free will.
First, note that in the situation where there is no free will, it works out the best for all. (For God, if he truly wants all people to be saved, and for people: they get a great life, no questions asked, who could argue against that?)
Second, note that the explanation for free will cannot be true in any of these cases.
I just thought I would bring it to your attention in case you didn't notice the problem yourself.
It is obvious that free will is the case. Despite the threat of hell most people say no thanks. Case closed.
If someone has told you: tomorrow at 3 pm the spaceship will land. You have to get your family and run and hide in such and such a place.
Most likely you wouldn't be able to believe that this is true. So for you, this is not a threat. This is a myth. Someone's delusion.
So you wouldn't even have to choose. You would just ignore their warning and go your way.
Most people who ignore hell pretty much don't believe it. It's not a treat to them. They are not making a choice. They are simply ignoring the whole thing altogether.
In order to make a choice, you have to believe that the treat is actually real.
Those who believe in God, but are not afraid of him, they are not really believing that he would hurt them. Because it's illogical to perceive a real treat and not to be afraid of it. Unless...there is something wrong with your brain and you don't think logically.... But then, if your brain is out of order, it's not a choice for you either...
I don't really know all the ins and outs of the God in the Bible.
I hope that doesn't count me out.
May I say, because of direct experience, which I know means very little here,
this whole shabang is just for our love.
"It" is a stage for a Cosmic Divine Romance....that's it.
No hell, no brimstone....gobs of endless Divine Love....Satchitanand...Nirvana...Bliss.
And if you're very lucky, later I will quote another way to say that that is very very sublime.
Some Christians claim that God gave people free will because he wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to (not because they were forced to).
But is that really so?
Imagine that someone is pointing a gun at you and says: choose me or I'll shoot you. And the person will say: ok, I choose you. So does that mean that person chose him because he wanted to or because he really did not have a choice? (I mean death was not considered a choice in this case).
It's not a choice. It's blackmail.
In Christian teachings, God says: choose me, or else you'll be tortured for eternity.
So, when people do end up choosing God, it's most likely because they didn't want to be tortured for eternity. So in this case, God did not accomplish his goal, people did not choose him because they wanted to. If God truly wanted people to choose Him because they wanted to, the only way to do that would be to give them 2 good choices. Chose me or not choose me and good things will happen to you in both cases.
So therefore, the argument that God gave people free will to choose Him willingly can't be true.
So then, why did God gave people free will? Knowing that most will end up in hell?
It doesn't seem to serve God. It doesn't seem to serve people. What good is free will again?
The only thing that free will accomplishes is that most people will go to hell (according to Jesus' words: many are chosen, but few will be saved)
Therefore, free will is not a gift, but a curse. And it makes no one happy. Unless God WANTED most people to go to hell.
So then why did God give people free will?
I think you'll have to find another explanation because this one doesn't work. Although I couldn't find any.
In annihilation theory - choose me and live and not choose me and die - it's still a forced choice. In universalism, no matter what you do, you'll be saved, it's like there is no free will.
First, note that in the situation where there is no free will, it works out the best for all. (For God, if he truly wants all people to be saved, and for people: they get a great life, no questions asked, who could argue against that?)
Second, note that the explanation for free will cannot be true in any of these cases.
I just thought I would bring it to your attention in case you didn't notice the problem yourself.
Blackmail is the perfect word for it. Blackmail and terrorism. In the OT, YHWY instructed Moses to murder 3000 innocent Jews that DECIDED to express their basic human rights and openly, peacefully worship a statue of a golden calf, instead of Moses's "God". YHWH also instructed Moses to stone to death a man for his peaceful demonstration against Moses's laws and picked up sticks on the Sabbath in protest. This is the same "God" that sanctions all kinds of atrocities, and the same "God" who condemns Jesus to death. There is no choice. It is terrorism. You are to love YHWH and no one else, or die. We are to thank Jesus for bringing the world so much closer to YHWH. Yeah, thank you Jesus. Thanks for that.
Blackmail is the perfect word for it. Blackmail and terrorism. In the OT, YHWY instructed Moses to murder 3000 innocent Jews that DECIDED to express their basic human rights and openly, peacefully worship a statue of a golden calf, instead of Moses's "God". YHWH also instructed Moses to stone to death a man for his peaceful demonstration against Moses's laws and picked up sticks on the Sabbath in protest. This is the same "God" that sanctions all kinds of atrocities, and the same "God" who condemns Jesus to death. There is no choice. It is terrorism. You are to love YHWH and no one else, or die. We are to thank Jesus for bringing the world so much closer to YHWH. Yeah, thank you Jesus. Thanks for that.
The whole free will thing gets me. So god knows exactly every choice anyone will ever make, yet you have free will. Sounds like you only have free will to make the choices pre ordained for you.
In annihilation theory - choose me and live and not choose me and die - it's still a forced choice. In universalism, no matter what you do, you'll be saved, it's like there is no free will.
Universalism is ess fundamentalism with a get out of jail card as far as hell is concerned, the SDA folk are more into annihilation as an alternative to heaven.
Quote:
First, note that in the situation where there is no free will, it works out the best for all. (For God, if he truly wants all people to be saved, and for people: they get a great life, no questions asked, who could argue against that?)
Second, note that the explanation for free will cannot be true in any of these cases.
Free will comes from this train of thought.
If god is so omnimax, why can he not simply forgive everyone? Why is there still evil when Jesus was supposed to fix it all?
Evil exists b/c satan compels people to reject god.
So satan is more powerful than god?
You must choose god and this is inferred as the free will option.
Of course there are huge problems in this simplistic scenario and the woos simply trot out free will as some kind of logical option when it is not.
If we really had free will, it should work in the secular sense too. It fails horribly. You are bound to follow societal laws whether you like them or not, IOW you have little choice but to conform or pay the penalties.
The premise of xian free will comes from these verses.
14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord.
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
and
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The others are you must be born anew/again
All of these as you say hold a gun to your head.
Folk tend to believe they are free agents of their own destinies but they are not. Your existence at present was predetermined by how your folks met, your grandparents etc. In this you had no choice or influence. If you were born in India and your parents Hindu, you probably would be Hindu too.
People fear death as that is a natural survival instinct. This fear has been addressed by the hope of an afterlife or the extension fear of of death to a horrific afterlife.
When you start applying logic to gods and religions, NONE of them make sense.
It is pretty safe to conclude this life is all there is. Otherwise, religionists would not seek life saving/extending medical treatment, they would actually embrace death if they really believed there was a better one to follow.
The latest trend folk offer in this regard are NDEs and OOBEs which have both been proven to be the product of an active and living brain by medical science.
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