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I have thought about religious and existential questions my entire life, for as long as I can remember, I have read and studied various religious texts in both academic and non-academic settings, and now because of the nature of my job I am pretty much exposed to religious questions every single day without end.
It is maddening in a way, but even more maddening is that I seem to be split down the middle on everything. All this uncertainty is frustrating, and I don't know what to do about it.
1) What I think...I guess that's the biggest question of all - is there a God, and is there anything after death, is there anything at all beyond the material realm?
I don't know. As much as I hate to say it, when I take into account everything I have read and experienced, I am split right down to 50-50. Somedays I believe there might be nothing. Other days I believe there is indeed something, and that might just be God.
I have read the books of Richard Dawkins and other famous atheists. Some of what they say, I agree with. I fully understand why someone would be an atheist. In my mid teens, I was drown more to atheism than anything else. It made the most sense. But something kept pulling me and pulling me, and that's when I really started delving into different religious texts. I read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I read the Torah and Koran, or at least the English translations offered at my bookstore. I read Hindu and Buddhist texts (well, writings from the Dalai Lama). I studied the Eastern Religions academically in college. I went to church, and to Hindu meditation at temples. And I felt varying degrees of truth in all of them, even if none I felt offered the complete truth. But as different as they were in a way, I felt that they came together in some of the main principles, and this common human factor pulled me closer to the divine, or what I perceived to be the divine.
Again, I understand the atheist argument that all of that, or the vast majority of that, is bull. On a personal level, no belief system has been able to come up with an answer that satisfies me as to why a loving God or any kind of rational life force out there would create a reality in which for example thousands of children die in a tsunami. I do not know, nor can I imagine the answer to this - and I have read a lot on this subject.
I must submit that when it comes to knowledge, I am 50-50. Possibly the agnostic label will fit more than most. I just can not budge from this.
2) What I hope to be true. Now this is the simpler one to answer. And I realize that what I hope has nothing to do with what is actually true or not, so in a way it is irrelevant. But I definitely wish that there is a heaven and that all human souls will eventually get there, one way or another. I do not agree with the argument that this desire is selfish or immoral. This is not just for me. In fact, my first thought when thinking about an afterlife is about all the millions upon millions of children who have died horribly at a young age having known a life of nothing but suffering. There is nothing at all that can make this better but a loving and all powerful God that will take care of everyone regardless of what has happened to us and what we have done. That is my hope.
3) Where I currently stand. I mentioned that I appreciated bits of all the religions I tried, but I definitely felt the most power and the most connected to the story of Jesus Christ. I was compelled to start going to church on a somewhat regular basis, and I continue to do so at what would be considered a very liberal Episcopalian church. I love all the pastors there, I have a good relationship with one of them, and I feel that I agree with pretty much everything this church beliefs.
The problem is I hardly stand on solid ground. As I mentioned, I am exposed to religious debates every day, and much of that comes from conservative elements of Christianity who maintain that there is only one right way. Even if I identify myself as someone who believes in Jesus, despite severe doubts, having learned all that I have learned, I absolutely can not say that good and devoted followers of the other faiths are on the wrong path. I can't. And I certainly can't say that I can imagine anyone who would deserve a punishment like eternal hell, let alone for the 'crime' of simply not being Christian. It goes against every last thing I possibly believe in or can imagine. I'm not saying I can judge the final destination of any soul, if such a thing exists, or that some kind of punishment would not make sense, but the doctrine of eternal hell I can not accept. I have debated on this topic probably more than any other, but that is where I stand.
So in a way, that puts me at odds with the majority of Christianity. I disagree with much of what conservatives say, but then there are a number of Bible passages that are hard to dispute. Jesus, who I say I feel a connection to, did seemingly that say he is the only way, and that there are no other paths. Furthermore, he spoke about hell and that people are going there, on numerous occasions. Now I have read a million things that might contradict that. Wrong translations, not the right interpretation, you name it. Which I can't say I fully accept, but I don't dismiss either. Again, I don't know. I feel connected to the Jesus that my church preaches. I love the Jesus that Rob Bell preaches. But conservatives do have a point in some ways. I mentioned I disagree with them a lot, but I also find myself agreeing with a number of the arguments and works of C.S. Lewis for example. His view of hell is also interesting and different, but I can't quite say I can jump on board with this version either. I just feel split right down the middle here too.
Many labels I suppose can be thrown at me. I go to an Episcopal church, so there's one. Maybe an agnostic. Or an agnostic theist. Liberal Christian, to push it further. According to Belief-O-net, I am a Unitarian Universalist. But at the end of the day, I just don't know.
An atheist could tell me to stop thinking about all this bull and just live my life free of religion, but deep down that will just not be true for me. At the same time, someone who tells me "just surrender your life entirely to Jesus and trust that the Bible is the full and only revelation of God"...it often sounds tempting, but again, it would not be honestly true to myself.
The scary thing is, I don't see this ever changing. To say that I can see myself becoming entirely devoted to one truth does not sound honest, but I realize that all this uncertainty and confusion benefits me nothing. If there really is nothing out there, no spiritual world, then all this confusion and frustration is simply a giant waste of time. But if there is a God, and the Christian conservatives happen to be right - then I suppose I have an eternity of hell in front of me. I lose heavily either way. Some conservatives can tell me that all this confusion is the devil trying to pull me away from Christ. Some atheists can tell me all this confusion is because I'm not thinking entirely rationally yet and need to abandon all religion.
But even with that thought, I am lost in an endless internal debate. Hopefully Rob Bell is right. But I don't know.
And if by some chance you've read this far, I randomly present you with my 3 favorite religious-themed movies: The Seventh Seal, Life of Pi, and The Last Temptation of Christ.
I don't have anything profound to say to help you. Only that I'm a member of the 50/50 club myself and can empathize with you. It's not an easy place to be, but it's not terrible either. No matter which way I'm leaning at any given moment -- whether there's a God or not, whether there is existence beyond physical death or not -- in this moment, loving others and striving to grow in the ability to love matters. And if it matters now, it'll matter if there is more than this lifetime, too. That's my anchor.
It sounds like you will fit in with christian universalism. They do not believe in an eternal hell or ET as they term it.
I have posted a lot on why there is no such place as hell but to keep it simple, hell comes from 4 mistranslated words
Sheol - OT - realm of the dead or simply the grave
Gehenna - NT Jesus' hell aka valley of Hinnom and now a grassy park in Jerusalem
Hades - NT - from Greek mythology similar to Sheol
Tartarus - NT - A mythical place reserved for satan and his angels.
We all go to hell or the grave.
Heaven does not exist and is something that folk invented to deal with the finality of life. The problem here is defeated with logic. After you have hooked up with relatives and caught up what are you going to do then? The xian version suggests an eternal church service sucking up to god.
As far as folk's self identification, if you asked them they would like to be in their late 20s or early 30s. This would be a problem if you have grandparents you miss. Everyone will be in this age group and the young children you mentioned will they remain kids forever? What about miscarriages, how will they appear or even introduce themselves to you?
Heaven is the cosmic real estate religion sells and there are no comebacks, no one has ever complained as no one has ever come back from the dead, NO ONE. It is the perfect ponzi scheme.
Folk invent parallel universes/realities as the biblical heaven is pretty mundane based on what the bible alludes to.
If the only thing that keeps you believing is fear then you are really doing what most believers do and that is employing Pascal's wager and that comes out pretty clear in your post. What if it is true? Well then you have to do that for all the myriads of other beliefs as there is no guarantee you have stumbled on the correct religion or belief system. Going with the majority view is simply an ad populum fallacy and is not a logical conclusion.
The latest "proof" theists proffer is NDEs and these are all a product of a living brain. Not all NDEs are about the xian heaven or hell and since they have been around a long time now thanks to medical science, most folk have the same idea of a white light experience or the fear of the alternate grim reaper coming to collect your soul to be damned.
And I felt varying degrees of truth in all of them, even if none I felt offered the complete truth. But as different as they were in a way, I felt that they came together in some of the main principles, and this common human factor pulled me closer to the divine, or what I perceived to be the divine.
You're missing what's right in front of you. What religions have in common is that they are ideas held by humans who share similar basic hopes, dreams, aspirations, fears and anxieties. This doesn't point to gods, but to humanity.
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Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
Again, I understand the atheist argument that all of that, or the vast majority of that, is bull. On a personal level, no belief system has been able to come up with an answer that satisfies me as to why a loving God or any kind of rational life force out there would create a reality in which for example thousands of children die in a tsunami. I do not know, nor can I imagine the answer to this - and I have read a lot on this subject.
And rightly so. There are only two basic explanations for the dichotomy you describe above. Either theodicy fails and god is one or more of: limited in power, limited in knowledge, and/or limited in benevolence ... or, there is no god at all (or the functional equivalents, god is absent and/or indifferent). What you are hung up on is that you can't bring yourself to face the actual alternatives. I submit to you that the alternatives are not actually that bad. Even I would LIKE it if there was a truly tri-omni god watching over me, who wouldn't? But he isn't, and yet the sky hasn't fallen. He isn't and yet Christians can effectively pretend that he is. So how bad could it be, actually?
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Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
There is nothing at all that can make this [suffering] better but a loving and all powerful God that will take care of everyone regardless of what has happened to us and what we have done.
False choice. Humans can make all this better, we're all working hard at it as we speak. Gradually, in many ways it IS getting qualitatively better. It's just a slow process that won't be finished in our lifetimes ... but we do get to contribute to it, each in our small ways.
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Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
3) Where I currently stand. I mentioned that I appreciated bits of all the religions I tried, but I definitely felt the most power and the most connected to the story of Jesus Christ. I was compelled to start going to church on a somewhat regular basis, and I continue to do so at what would be considered a very liberal Episcopalian church. I love all the pastors there, I have a good relationship with one of them, and I feel that I agree with pretty much everything this church beliefs.
A logical thing for someone in your headspace to do. That or Unitarianism.
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Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
The problem is I hardly stand on solid ground. As I mentioned, I am exposed to religious debates every day, and much of that comes from conservative elements of Christianity who maintain that there is only one right way. Even if I identify myself as someone who believes in Jesus, despite severe doubts, having learned all that I have learned, I absolutely can not say that good and devoted followers of the other faiths are on the wrong path. I can't. And I certainly can't say that I can imagine anyone who would deserve a punishment like eternal hell, let alone for the 'crime' of simply not being Christian. It goes against every last thing I possibly believe in or can imagine. I'm not saying I can judge the final destination of any soul, if such a thing exists, or that some kind of punishment would not make sense, but the doctrine of eternal hell I can not accept. I have debated on this topic probably more than any other, but that is where I stand.
Why can't you bring yourself to take a stand against certain things? It's not like you're claiming infallibility by doing so, or that you can't be persuaded by new evidence that you're currently unaware of.
Look, people who have different convictions than you do are entitled to them, so long as they mind their own business. But when they open themselves willingly to debate with you, then they don't deserve a free pass or automatic acquiescence and deference for their every thought, either. Debate isn't all about, "sorry, dear fellow, kudos to your magnificence, I did not mean to challenge you in any way." It's debate. Anyone who enters into debate does not get a free pass to spout any old thing without substantiation. And literalists, in particular, tend to have zilch, zip, nada in the way of logic or evidence to discuss.
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Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
So in a way, that puts me at odds with the majority of Christianity. I disagree with much of what conservatives say, but then there are a number of Bible passages that are hard to dispute.
Only if you accept Bible passages as any kind of evidence. Why would you do that? You don't debate conservatives on their appeals to authority, including their bibliolatry; you debate them on the facts and merits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
Jesus, who I say I feel a connection to, did seemingly say he is the only way, and that there are no other paths.
No, a so-called holy book says that someone named Jesus said that. That is not that same as saying that a real person (not a fiction or composite figure) actually spoke those words, much less that he was god incarnate when he said it, or that he was right and truthful. You are still enamored with the Bible as a source of actual information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
Furthermore, he spoke about hell and that people are going there, on numerous occasions. Now I have read a million things that might contradict that. Wrong translations, not the right interpretation, you name it. Which I can't say I fully accept, but I don't dismiss either. Again, I don't know. I feel connected to the Jesus that my church preaches. I love the Jesus that Rob Bell preaches. But conservatives do have a point in some ways. I mentioned I disagree with them a lot, but I also find myself agreeing with a number of the arguments and works of C.S. Lewis for example. His view of hell is also interesting and different, but I can't quite say I can jump on board with this version either. I just feel split right down the middle here too.
As long as you want to troll the world for the 1,462 different concepts of hell as if they meant anything, you will never be able to come to a conclusion about them. It's no different than trolling the world for the 1,462,347,283 concepts of beauty and not being able to decide whether it's a short raven brunette, a leggy blonde, a redwood tree or a sunset. Except that at least aesthetic concepts like beauty have some basis in observable shared reality and people don't base their existential angst (usually) upon any one single definition of beauty being "correct".
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
Many labels I suppose can be thrown at me. I go to an Episcopal church, so there's one. Maybe an agnostic. Or an agnostic theist. Liberal Christian, to push it further. According to Belief-O-net, I am a Unitarian Universalist. But at the end of the day, I just don't know.
You are basically a confused agnostic theist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
An atheist could tell me to stop thinking about all this bull and just live my life free of religion, but deep down that will just not be true for me. At the same time, someone who tells me "just surrender your life entirely to Jesus and trust that the Bible is the full and only revelation of God"...it often sounds tempting, but again, it would not be honestly true to myself.
It seems to me that you have actually found a stasis that is somewhat true to yourself, you're just afraid to own it. Or maybe to own anything.
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Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
The scary thing is, I don't see this ever changing.
Scary, how?? Afraid you're wrong? Look, if god is a petty, vindictive, insecure twit who tortures the vast majority of humanity for not finding the "correct" belief, you're in a lot of good company; we're all screwed. And would you really want to spend eternity with someone like that?
But even with that thought, I am lost in an endless internal debate. Hopefully Rob Bell is right. But I don't know.
.
None of us do, that is one of the great dilemmas of humanity, that if there is a purpose to our existing, we have to try and find it in an apparent vacuum, or we have to invent it ourselves and hope that it is valid. The alternative is to become comfortable with the idea that there is no purpose, or at least comfortable with the idea that there is no practical difference between having a purpose but not knowing it, and having no purpose.
Scary, how?? Afraid you're wrong? Look, if god is a petty, vindictive, insecure twit who tortures the vast majority of humanity for not finding the "correct" belief, you're in a lot of good company; we're all screwed. And would you really want to spend eternity with someone like that?
I agree with that. The reason why I dislike my position is that others at least feel secure and at peace with their worldviews. Many Christians, and other devoted religious followers, believe strongly that they are going to heaven, or the equivalent. Non-beleivers, at least many I have interacted with, feel happy that they are free from the burdens of religion. Contrary views, but at least they seem to offer some level of peace. I am more in a stormy ocean being rocked every day by new waves.
Might I suggests that you split the question into two
(1) God, who might or might not exist, and nobody really knows. While the logical position would be to not believe until you are sure for some reason or other, you might prefer to believe because it suits you.
This god is the god of all religions or none and is not a god with an interest in a specific religion.
Thus:
(2) religion and perhaps specifically, Christianity. Now, about that, you can come to some definite conclusions - that is, if you are interested in the evidence rather than just opting to believe on faith, in which case, your question seems to have resolved itself.
The reason why I dislike my position is that others at least feel secure and at peace with their world views. Many Christians, and other devoted religious followers, believe strongly that they are going to heaven, or the equivalent. Non-believers, at least many I have interacted with, feel happy that they are free from the burdens of religion. Contrary views, but at least they seem to offer some level of peace. I am more in a stormy ocean being rocked every day by new waves.
In my experience when someone is ratcheting back and forth about anything (not just religious views) it is because there is something in both views that they are uncomfortable with. It is clear to me what you are uncomfortable about in theism. What exactly are you uncomfortable about in atheism? Is it the absence of a heaven? The possibility of being mistaken? Or something else?
In my experience when someone is ratcheting back and forth about anything (not just religious views) it is because there is something in both views that they are uncomfortable with. It is clear to me what you are uncomfortable about in theism. What exactly are you uncomfortable about in atheism? Is it the absence of a heaven? The possibility of being mistaken? Or something else?
In terms of what I hope for, regardless of the truth? I would have to repeat point No. 2, and yes, Heaven would be the big thing. Millions upon millions of people, many of whom children, have died in the most unjust and horrible of circumstances throughout history. Without the possibility of heaven, their only fate is to rot in the ground, their story over forever. There is no philospohy or way of thinking I can convince myself in that would make such a reality not extremely, extremely horrible in every way imaginable.
None of us do, that is one of the great dilemmas of humanity, that if there is a purpose to our existing, we have to try and find it in an apparent vacuum, or we have to invent it ourselves and hope that it is valid. The alternative is to become comfortable with the idea that there is no purpose, or at least comfortable with the idea that there is no practical difference between having a purpose but not knowing it, and having no purpose.
I think Grandstander is right. I wonder how many people really are 50/50 just like yourself? I suspect many.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighwayBlue
I agree with that. The reason why I dislike my position is that others at least feel secure and at peace with their worldviews. Many Christians, and other devoted religious followers, believe strongly that they are going to heaven, or the equivalent. Non-beleivers, at least many I have interacted with, feel happy that they are free from the burdens of religion. Contrary views, but at least they seem to offer some level of peace. I am more in a stormy ocean being rocked every day by new waves.
Personally I'm not sure if it is so much 'being at peace with their worldview' but perhaps more a case of 'happy with their lot'. It's a bit like the difference between a person who is hungry for adventure and to see the world and a person who is content to live in the same house their entire life having never seen anything outside their town. Some people are just content with what has been handed to them and don't wonder about anything outside their bubble.
You just want the answer and nobody can say you haven't been thorough in your search.
I completely hear what you are saying as I was similar for a long time except I came at it from a different angle. I was atheist and wanted to get to the bottom of why people had faith, as though I was missing out on something. I found it maddening too.
I found it a huge relief once I had basically ruled everything out and god in the end just made no sense to me. I think actually you will get there one day too, one way or another.
Great post by the way.
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