Christian morality: an atheist's point of view (worship, faith, verse)

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Sin will always be sin, and until you are born again, you are spiritually incapable of recognizing sin in its fullest nature.

Rubbish. All you did was explain why your religious sect is superior to all others. It's merely the religious form of nationalism, waving around a foam finger with "#1" printed on it. As I said in my last post, you believe what you believe is the best belief because YOU believe in it. Yeah, I know that sounds like an Abbot and Costello skit, but I mean exactly what I said.

You want to believe that your religion opens your eyes to sin - and maybe it does, but not in any good way. Religion quite often invents sin - even apart from anything your holy books say - as a means of control, subjugation, and to keep the clergy at the top of the totem pole (even above kings and emperors). The 6,000 year-long subjugation of women is a classic example, especially since you can look around and still see it everywhere you look. Yeah, religion caused that because it presented the justification for it. No, I'm not saying Christianity is solely responsible - especially given that Christianity is 3,000 years old, not 6,000 so obviously it wasn't -just- Christianity that created the problem.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Your position only holds up if you regard God has being completely equal with man.

And that's why my position holds up. Man is equal to God because God is the creation of Man. Those ancient tribesmen were all but incapable of inventing a truly divine God because they had no idea how a truly divine God would and should act. The best they could come up with was just another garden variety angry god who got a kick out of punishing people, committing atrocities, and acting like a spoiled brat.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

The creator is the same as the creation?

Man is better than God ... by leaps and bounds. So no, even though Man created God, the creation is significantly less than the creator. And that's how it works with everything, isn't it? Humanity has always been a better machine than anything we ever invented or constructed. Which is just one more reason why it's not too hard to see humanity's "tool marks" all over the story of God.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Even if you put it to our limited human brains understanding of parent child relationship then that would be like saying children have just as much intelligence and authority as the parent.

Your premise fails immediately because it is not a "parent-child" relationship. It is a master-slave relationship, it is an abusive husband-battered wife relationship. There is absolutely NOTHING good about Man's fabricated relationship with that capricious entity you call "God."

Secondly, limited intelligence is what created God in the first place. I don't have to be smarter than God. I just have to be smarter than the ancient Bedouins who tried to pass off this religious bunk as real. And while I may not be -genetically- smarter, I know more ... I know more about our world than every living person on the planet 3,000 years ago. Were my knowledge compared to theirs, I, myself, would be revered as a God if for no other reason than I could predict things they never could. Because I have science on my side whereas they only had ignorance and fear.

Our modern morality would champion the slave, not the master. We would plead with and help the battered wife to escape the abusive husband instead cheerleading for the husband and applauding every smack to his wife's face. Yet religion somehow has twisted this morality into a diametrically opposite view. Somehow, you folks are so blinded by these archaic stories that you cannot even see the glaring, childishly obvious imperfections, nay, the EVIL that has been written into this God character you revere so much.

And that is precisely why secular morality is light years ahead of any morality religion has to offer. And I say "light years" only because secular morality cannot get further away from religious morality any faster without riding on the back of a neutrino.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

God created us. He didn't have to give you breathe of life. He has every right to decide when to end that life. We don't have the right to end other people's lives. So the term "genocide" does't apply to God.

And that is precisely -why- there is no such thing as objective morality. Wow, you could have just admitted I was right to begin with and saved us both a ton of unnecessary typing.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

You know, I think about ISIS and the unbelievable cruel acts they are committing. They actually cut a young boy in half.

Yep, and if God was doing it - or one of his duly appointed representatives - you'd be jumping up and down, clapping your hands, and giggling like a school girl high on meth. "Go get 'em, God. Show 'em whose the boss of these heathens! My human morality pales in comparison to a divine morality that believes young children should be cut in half for not joining a stupid Bronze Age Cult."

No, don't even try insulting my intelligence by denying it. In fact, you've already admitted it by saying:

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And that's just the human standard. I don't blame God one bit for wanting to wipe the slate clean.

Yep, all those people deserved to die, so if one of God's little minions cut a boy in half, good! He deserved it. Well guess what - those members of ISIS? They're working on behalf of -their- God doing precisely the same thing: committing atrocities against people they believe their God judged to be unworthy of life.

Which makes YOU no different than they are - aside from the fact you are limited in your actions by the rule of law. I always shudder to think what would happen to people like me should secular law ever fail and fundamentalists went on a holy tear ... just like ISIS. You need to look in a mirror, Jeff, and think hard about your own morality, your own civility, and your own compassion. Because I think your religious fervor and blind faith in a malicious (and fictional) God makes you potentially capable of doing unspeakable horrors to your fellow Man.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Yet according to the Bible, the people of Noah's day were doing things worse than that. Worse than the Nazis.

Really, Jeff? And precisely what did the Bible say that 100% of the human population on the planet was doing that was "worse [even] than the Nazis?" C'mon, let's hear the details. Oh right ... there aren't any. The Bible merely says that humanity had become evil.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

Yeah ... that it. That's all that was said. Yet you're going to sit here and make up nonsense about how people were worse than Nazis. All of them.

All .... of .... them.

Yet you have NO idea why those people were wicked. For all you know, they merely worshiped different gods. That's more than enough to tick off Yahweh whose ego just can't stand other religions. In fact, it is the ONLY ... I repeat, the ONLY ... thing that makes sense, the ONLY thing that ALL humans could be doing that God found to be wicked: worshiping other gods.

So is that what you think, Jeff? Do you think everyone deserved to die simply for not being a Christian? How would you translate that to the modern world? Oh of course .... ISIS. Yeah, those nasty people butchering anyone who isn't a fundamentalist Muslim. Wow, funny how the parallels just keep a'comin', isn't it.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Do you think a king would put up with that? Sit by and watch the people of his kindgom do horrible acts to each other and murder his own family?

You have NO idea what God meant when he said everyone was wicked. None. For all you know, everyone worked on the Sabbath or refused to oppress gays or perhaps they didn't murder their own children when they sassed back. Hell, maybe they simply refused to put tassles on the four corners of their cloaks. God's definition of "wicked" is pretty fast and loose - which means the odds are very good that you approve of global genocide simply because God does.

And that does not make you moral. It makes you a blind lemming that goes along with whatever your religion tells you. No thought, no analysis, no individuality. Uh huh. Nope. You just follow orders. And if God told you slaughter your own kids because he gets a thrill from it, you'd do it. If God told you to pick up a gun and start murdering atheists. You'd do it. No questions asked.

Yeah, that's what you're saying whether you realize it or not. The Nuremburg Defense. I was only following orders. Now, you were saying about people being worse than the Nazis? Perhaps some introspection will give you some surprising and disturbing answers about your own beliefs.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

No, you would probably think the king was justified in ordering the deaths of these people.

Ah, so you're saying that a king/ruler like Saddam Hussein was justified in gassing his own people to death. Remember that? Surely you remember the pictures of streets choked with dead bodies, mothers with their toddlers curled up in their arms - dead, their skin white with the noxious residue, thousands of them. Because they dared to defy Saddam's harsh and sociopathic rulership. In fact, that was one of the pretexts Bush used for going to war - a ruler used WMDs on his own people.

But what YOU are saying is that Saddam was justified in his actions. Nay he should be reward, perhaps even revered for poisoning his people for daring to defy the king's (dictator's) will.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

With bold statements like that, how can I not conclude that you regard the ENTIRE Bible as fiction? Therefore, it doesn't matter that events like the Battle of Carchemish which are verified in other ancient civilization's texts match up with the Biblical account. It must be fiction, huh?

What difference does it really make whether I think the Battle of Carchemish is fiction or not? That's just an academic issue. What's important is that I make no secret, in fact I shout it from the roof tops, that I believe the pertinent, relevant things in the Bible are fiction. From Adam and Eve to Jesus's final journey into heaven.

Fiction. It's made up. It is make-believe. Pretend. Fantasy. That's what I believe. Even if there is a god, it isn't any god you're going to find in the Bible - or any other holy book or religious belief. Does that mean nothing at all in the Bible has value? No, of course not. Even works of fiction can inspire, motivate, and change a person's outlook on life. There's nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from works of fiction. What's wrong is when people forget that it IS fiction and begin forming cults around it. Then those cults grow into religions, and those religions stomp across the face of the planet butchering, oppressing, persecuting, judging, and executing in the name of their fictitious god. What's wrong is when a person begins to see genocide as acceptable, when wrong becomes right, when evil becomes good ... all because of the actions of a fictitious god that has been painted by tribesman to be perfectly good and just.

God's actions - not the book - should decide whether your god is truly good or evil.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Furthermore, there isn't a single historical document that claims the opposite. That Jesus never lived and the Christians were practicing a fake religion.

I was going to address the other points about Josephus and such - but then I read this. And I realized at that point - really, what's the use. What's the use of this whole post?

After all, there aren't any history books out there stating that Darth Vader and Indiana Jones aren't real, either. Should we then assume they were both historical characters?

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

And yet, our earliest forms of writing originate from hmm, South America? No. China? No. Mesopotamia? Yes. Same region where Abraham came out of. The factor alone lends credibility to the tower of Babel story. OTOH, you have zero evidence for your position that the story is rubbish.

It's rubbish on it's face (prima facie). Where language originated says nothing about the truth of the Tower of Babel story. While certainly language did originate in Mesopotamia, what is also true is that not ALL languages originated in Mesopotamia. And that by itself disproves any such ridiculous notions of God smiting everyone with a different language - presumably all at once. I don't recall the Bible saying that he made everyone in Mesopotamia speak different dialects of Arabic then waiting about 1000 years then smiting the Chinese with the Chinese language while waiting another few hundred years before smiting the Native Americans with a completely different language (I can only assume that the Native Americans were speaking some form of Arabic before God got around to making them speak "Aztec").

And yeah ... how come there are NO writings in, say China or Teotihuacan or Cahokia that are in Arabic or any other Mesopotamian language? After all, it would have to be true that -everyone- spoke the same language before the Tower incident - which means ALL writings before Babel would be IDENTICAL no matter where geographically they were found.

But that isn't the case, now, is it. No, it's not. The Chinese language is NOTHING like any language found in Mesopotamia or the Middle East. They don't even use the same symbology or even write from left to right. It is totally different. Yet the Chinese were a contemporary civilization to the Mesopotamians as were the Australian Aborigines and the Mongoloid races that migraged into North America (because that migration happened 16,500 years ago, long before the Bible and Mesopotamian languages. LONG before.)

So how come there is NO evidence that Native Americans in Cahokia or Teotihuacan or Puma Punku or Pelenque or Tikal ever spoke any sort of Mesopotamian dialect? Hmmm? And no, the Tower of Babel nonsense did not happen earlier than 16,500 years ago so don't even bother. All the evidence shows that the Americans living there at the time developed their own languages completely independent of Mesopotamia as did the Chinese. And India's writings go back even further than the Bible and strange how they aren't claiming they now speak hundreds of different dialects of Hindi because God destroyed a tower in some childish state of histrionics. Why is that?

Oh, I could go on and on with this - but I think I've proven my case sufficiently enough. The evidence shows that YOUR beliefs are dead-bang wrong. The nature of language and how it spread would have been completely different than the actual evidence shows in order for your version of events to be correct.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

If the Bible is so easily defeated why are there Bible professors at seminary and people dedicated to their lives to getting a degree at such institutions? Do you really think these professors are just blind to realizations than you claim to easily achieve?

Do you think that Hindu, Muslim, Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist monks dedicate their lives even less? In fact many of them sacrifice a hell of a lot more than any Christian theologian who still get to live in their comfy modern homes and live their cushy First World lives while some of these non-Christian monks live very spartan, self-sacrificing lives.

Are you going to tell them that THEIR religions are all false? Well .... how could that be if they are so dedicated to their faiths as equally as any Christian? Something just isn't adding up now, is it.

Cheers.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Rubbish. All you did was explain why your religious sect is superior to all others. It's merely the religious form of nationalism, waving around a foam finger with "#1" printed on it. As I said in my last post, you believe what you believe is the best belief because YOU believe in it. Yeah, I know that sounds like an Abbot and Costello skit, but I mean exactly what I said.
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Are you going to tell them that THEIR religions are all false? Well .... how could that be if they are so dedicated to their faiths as equally as any Christian? Something just isn't adding up now, is it.

Cheers.

Well said, Shirina.

I, and others will be intrigued with what Jeff may come back with.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Vizio

It's an honest question. How do you know? Do you realize that Isaac carried the wood for the sacrifice? He very likely knew what was coming. The text doesn't say he was terrified. You're inserting your own opinion.

No, the text actually shows that Abraham lied to Isaac about the nature of the sacrifice, so of course he'd carry the wood.

First, in Genesis 22:5, Abraham told his servants to stay with the donkeys, that he and the boy (Isaac) would go over there (to the sacrificial place) and worship and then WE will come back to you.

We.

Who do you suppose Abraham meant by "we" ... that ubiquitous mouse in his pocket? Of course not. I'm quite certain Isaac was within earshot when Abraham gave instructions to his servants. Abraham had to tell a bald-faced lie about both of them coming back so that Isaac wouldn't know what was REALLY going to happen.

Secondly, when Isaac asked where the lamb was for the sacrifice, Abraham again lied by saying God would provide it. Obviously Isaac was completely clueless that he, himself, was to be the sacrifice. This scene only makes this story all the more disgusting - because it clearly shows the absolute and innocent trust Isaac had in his father, and Abraham was knowingly going to betray that trust. What's worse, the Bible portrays Abraham having absolutely no remorse, sadness, reluctance, or regret for having to murder his own son (and lie about it to lure Isaac like a prey animal to the place of sacrifice).

Any parent should be mortified at this story - and should regard Abraham as nothing short of a villain. How many awful times have we read in the papers or seen on the news a story about how a parent violated the unwavering trust of a child? Sometimes it was to molest them, some times it was to rape them, sometimes it was to kill them. And we all, rightfully so, feel absolute loathing for that parent.

But oh no, not with Abraham. No, he's a friggin' HERO, a paragon of faith, the founder of the Religions of the Book.

It only proves my point about how Christianity literally twists and perverts morality; it rots morality like a festering disease.

Henceforth in the story, Isaac's reaction is not even mentioned. The Bible just says Abraham bound Isaac and threw him on the altar. Was Isaac scared? Why wouldn't he be? The Bible never says that Abraham took the time to explain the situation to Isaac and Isaac willingly went to die. Nope. It was deception from the very beginning, so it stands to reason that, once more, Isaac let his father bind him out of that heart-wrenching trust a son has for his father. A trust so sickeningly betrayed. Perhaps that's what this story ought to teach us - though then we would argue that betraying trusts grants rewards from God.

Oh, and as an aside about this story, here's what I find interesting:

Genesis 22:18 says that, because Abraham obeyed God, ALL of the nations of earth would be blessed. Yeah, ALL of them ... not just America. This verse should show any Biblical adherent that American Exceptionalism is a load of steaming manure.

Okay, carry on.

[fishbrains]

Shirina,

Nicely done.

Sadly, our resident Christian apologists seem to have fled this thread. Odd, when so many state that their sense of objective morality is a proof (I use the word very loosely) for the existence of god. I would think that they would be interested in mounting a better defense.

The reality is that advise from a few unsupported assertions, some red herrings and snide questioning of credentials, their defense of their position has collapsed.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by Shirina

Rubbish. All you did was explain why your religious sect is superior to all others. It's merely the religious form of nationalism, waving around a foam finger with "#1" printed on it. As I said in my last post, you believe what you believe is the best belief because YOU believe in it. Yeah, I know that sounds like an Abbot and Costello skit, but I mean exactly what I said.

No rubbish is thinking you can be an atheist and still believe that evil exists and there is some ingrained sense of morality that all humans can know without any influence from God. There is no basis. We are just randomly created bags of DNA and chemicals in your world. You live, you die, and someone else takes up your place consuming resources.

Originally Posted by Shirina

You want to believe that your religion opens your eyes to sin - and maybe it does, but not in any good way. Religion quite often invents sin - even apart from anything your holy books say - as a means of control, subjugation, and to keep the clergy at the top of the totem pole (even above kings and emperors). The 6,000 year-long subjugation of women is a classic example, especially since you can look around and still see it everywhere you look. Yeah, religion caused that because it presented the justification for it. No, I'm not saying Christianity is solely responsible - especially given that Christianity is 3,000 years old, not 6,000 so obviously it wasn't -just- Christianity that created the problem.

You have a remarkable of twisting the truth and light of the gospel into something dark and foul. My faith doesn't invent sin. The Holy Spirit shows us sin. The number one characteristic of sin is that it destroys.

And if you believe that the Bible teaches subjugation of women to men then you need to study the Bible better and stop taking the easy surface reading definition. If Christians approached the Bible the way that you do, we wouldn't need preachers to teach the Word. But you will cherry pick a single verse and ignore verses like Galatians 3:26-29 which teaches that we are ALL equals in Christ.

Originally Posted by Shirina

And that's why my position holds up. Man is equal to God because God is the creation of Man. Those ancient tribesmen were all but incapable of inventing a truly divine God because they had no idea how a truly divine God would and should act. The best they could come up with was just another garden variety angry god who got a kick out of punishing people, committing atrocities, and acting like a spoiled brat.

But they seemed quite capable of creating an elaborate fiction spanning centuries, keeping the message consistent and including countless details of other cultures and interactions. Pretty impressive for a group of ignorant sheep herders huh? So they are either creative geniuses or their writings are carefully preserved historical facts. Either way, you're wrong. You have no proof, none whatsoever that God is a creation of man.

I have to call it a nite and piece-meal out your massive reply later so don't go gloating that you made the Christian apologists run and hide.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

I have to call it a nite and piece-meal out your massive reply later so don't go gloating that you made the Christian apologists run and hide.

LOL! "Massive reply."

You're the second person to say that in this thread.

What a testament to our culture these days - that my posts are considered "massive" and "wordy" because they aren't little soundbites or a slogan on a bumper sticker. Something that can be read in 20 seconds or less, something that can be stuffed into a Twitter response.

There was a time when people saw reading as a privilege. Now, it's a burden.

I won't respond to the rest of your post. I'll wait for you to write the response to my *ahem* MASSIVE reply first.

And I never gloated that I had chased you off. I think your tenaciousness is admirable even if I do think you're completely off-base.

Good night.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by tigetmax24

In my view, it goes against logic to deny the basic Law of Non-contradiction. The very fact that we exist serves as proof or "demonstrates" that God exists - the logical follow on being that it then follows that moral absolutes also exist. I suspect that you disagree.

First of all, the fact that we exist would only prove that A god exists, some kind of creating force that somehow (unexplainedly) managed to create a universe.

The fact that we exist says NOTHING about Christianity being true - and it says NOTHING about whether this creating force is Yahweh God of the Christians (or more accurately, the god of a desert tribe called the Hebrews).

You're making this unsubstantiated leap from A to N without making a case for any of the points in between.

Secondly, I could just as easily claim that our existence is proof that we defied the odds and evolved naturally without any help from a creator. That seems far more logical to me given the serious, even ham-handed flaws in the human body.

Why, for instance, would a creator, especially God who is supposed to be omnipotent, create us so that we have to use the same pipe that we eat with to also breathe with. Does God get a big chuckle of watching people choke? Or ... what kind of idiot would design our reproductive organs to be right next to, and in some cases doubling as, our waste ejection organs? Thanks, Mr. Creator, for exposing us to all of that harmful bacteria every time we have a go in the hay, so to speak.

And speaking of sex, it is nonsense to believe that a creator (God) stuck us with a) wanting sex all the time and b) making it one of the most powerful biological urges while making sex dangerous and laying down rules that essentially forces us to war against our own bodies.

Moreover, there are all of the "extras" left over in the human body that have since been phased out via evolution. The appendix, for instance. Did God create us with that ticking bomb just to giggle when it burst and killed people? That's all it seems to do. Or how about male nipples? That's always a good one. Or goosebumps. Did you know that reaction was from an era when our bodies were covered with fur? It allowed us to raise our hackles - like a cat, to make ourselves appear larger, more powerful to our adversaries. Or wisdom teeth which usually have to be removed because the human jaw has grown smaller via evolution, giving wisdom teeth nowhere to grow.

Or Jacobson's organ, located in the nose, that once would have granted us the ability to smell pharamones of the opposite sex and help us locate mates before communication was possible. Do you know why some people can wiggle their ears? Because some people have vestigial muscles that were once used to allow hominids to swivel their ears independently of their head ... like a cat. We still have a now undeveloped muscle in our feet that once allowed us to grip with our feet the way apes still do.

Why would a creator place these left-over, now useless "features" in our bodies? Is this some kind of stupid joke to make it LOOK like we evolved when we really didn't? Sorry but no. I'm not going to believe in something so ridiculous.

There is no logical follow-on in regards to an absolute morality considering our existence in no way proves that any being that created us even has a morality itself. Once more, you're just assuming that if there is a god at all, it MUST be the Christian god of the Bible. That's not only illogical, it is a logical fallacy known as the 'false dilemma.'

[ElizaTeal]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

No rubbish is thinking you can be an atheist and still believe that evil exists and there is some ingrained sense of morality that all humans can know without any influence from God. There is no basis. We are just randomly created bags of DNA and chemicals in your world. You live, you die, and someone else takes up your place consuming resources.




You have a remarkable of twisting the truth and light of the gospel into something dark and foul. My faith doesn't invent sin. The Holy Spirit shows us sin. The number one characteristic of sin is that it destroys.

And if you believe that the Bible teaches subjugation of women to men then you need to study the Bible better and stop taking the easy surface reading definition. If Christians approached the Bible the way that you do, we wouldn't need preachers to teach the Word. But you will cherry pick a single verse and ignore verses like Galatians 3:26-29 which teaches that we are ALL equals in Christ.





But they seemed quite capable of creating an elaborate fiction spanning centuries, keeping the message consistent and including countless details of other cultures and interactions. Pretty impressive for a group of ignorant sheep herders huh? So they are either creative geniuses or their writings are carefully preserved historical facts. Either way, you're wrong. You have no proof, none whatsoever that God is a creation of man.

I have to call it a nite and piece-meal out your massive reply later so don't go gloating that you made the Christian apologists run and hide.

Oh please, even my dogs are good without god. You don't need a god to be good. Life isn't always grand, but adults can learn to deal with it, without the promise of an imaginary heaven, or the fear of hell. God is not a creator, god is man's creation.
If you visited my house you'd see early, religious stained glass pieces, but my appreciation for the god man created goes no further than the art world.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by ElizaTeal

Oh please, even my dogs are good without god. You don't need a god to be good. Life isn't always grand, but adults can learn to deal with it, without the promise of an imaginary heaven, or the fear of hell. God is not a creator, god is man's creation.
If you visited my house you'd see early, religious stained glass pieces, but my appreciation for the god man created goes no further than the art world.

Ok so where is your proof that man created God?

[ElizaTeal]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Ok so where is your proof that man created God?

Because everything about god was made by man, including but not limited to the Bible, the church, TV evangelists....