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Unless they are the ones who are going hungry, or dying, or have no material things?
This. Every single Christian I know cries, prays (begs God for help) and even asks others to beg God on their behalf (prayer) when they're the ones going through the pain, or when someone they love is.
VERY VERY rarely do I hear of someone praying just to understand/accept the pain. For example, I know an awful lot of Christians who have prayed that their cancer will go away; generally only at the very end will they pray for "acceptance" of the cancer. Usually "...if it's Your will" is added on, sort of as a stop-gap. I mean if it was God's will you wouldn't be praying about it, would you - you'd be just, well, accepting it. You don't have to pray to God in order for God to decide to do His will. Come on, people. You know that no matter how delicately you try to put your petition, when you're praying in crisis this way, you're trying to change God's mind/sway Him to change things in your favor. If you literally wanted God to do God's will, then you'd just let God do God's will; praying for Him to do His will would not be necessary (is it anyway?).
Now if you literally only ever pray to say hello to God, that's something different. I personally have never met a Christian who only ever prayed to say "hello, and I think You're amazing." Such prayers do exist and are used but far from exclusively, and even those are used with an ultimately self-centered goal, to be entirely frank about it: to develop a better relationship with God - why? In order to "be blessed," "be chosen" and ultimately get into heaven. ALL of the Christians I have ever known HAVE felt suffering in life was anything but trivial, even as compared to "an eternity" in the afterlife, and have and do wish for pleasure and against pain in this life - THEN ultimately in heaven.
When it comes right down to it, even praying to "just accept" pain doesn't demonstrate that pain and death are unimportant to Christians. In fact, it demonstrates the opposite (and who can blame them; they're human) - that they're struggling against the fact that it's that important (and that painful). If they weren't, they wouldn't have to pray about it and they definitely wouldn't question it; they'd just, well, be living with it.
This life IS important. If not, then why are we even here? One thing about religion that really grinds my gears is this obsession with the NEXT life. It's like those annoying people at work who slack off because they're too busy daydreaming about what they're going to do after work. Hello! Let's focus on the here and now, please!
I agree with this. I mean the common meme among the very religious tends to be "this life is unimportant." Really? Not according to the Bible! If life is unimportant, why did God place so much emphasis on it and on creation? Why is "death" considered the worst punishment? Why is committing murder considered a sin? Why is abortion (not as much according to the Bible as according to certain sects of Christianity) considered one of the most vile things a person can "commit"? Why is suicide considered unforgivable and a ticket to hell...if life and living aren't important?
If earthly things and feelings are completely trivial and temporary in God's eyes, why did God make pain so distressful a thing to us? Why did He make pleasure such a wonderful and fulfilling feeling, something we'll actually knock over chairs and go running to get? Why did Jesus ask others to clothe and feed the poor, if their suffering and life aren't important and the afterlife is the only important thing? All this isn't smacking of triviality or unimportance to me.
Seems to me that ESPECIALLY according to both the Bible and various Christian doctrine depending upon the sect, life IS important. Very, very, very important.
However, I disagree with the "jumping off a bridge" point. If there really is no God, and we are simply the results of chemistry and biology, then those people have no less a right to be here than anyone else, as in that case, it doesn't come down to rights at all. If we're all the result of nature without any Godly interference then those people have no more responsibility to take up space wisely than anyone else. They didn't ask to be here, they're just...here. Like I am, like you are.
And if such actions (or inactions) are too widespread and ultimately result in the extinction of a given species, then that species is not unlike any other species that ultimately went extinct. The wouldn't be a great crime nor tragedy; species go extinct all the time.
And if in fact there IS a God, and their whining and inaction results in difficulties for others, I'm sure God will eventually sort all that out Himself. And in the meantime, if said person's actions end up being dangerous right here in this life, well, we have laws.
If one does all these good "Christian " things to get that warm,cozy feeling of love and/or to earn themselves a place in heaven, are they doing it for self-serving, selfish reasons or out of 'love' for others?
It all gets especially suspect when one pats themselves ( or their church) on the back for it.
Most things people do is to make themselves feel good, even giving presents to others.
But let's not get this twisted. We're not talking about how people who are suffering can look at suffering in a way that helps them to endure. We're talking about the people who can do something to alleviate the suffering of others and choose not to, because it's "unimportant".
You may as well blame the whole world because it's the attitude of most, isn't? It seems only a few are sacrificing their comforts in order to ensure that others are not suffering as much.
But also, the only reason that someone could perceive suffering as "unimportant" is because they had to find a way to cope with it. So when they "look" at suffering "in a way that helps them to endure" THAT perspective will make them think that it's unimportant. The two cannot be separated. The latter flows out of the first one.
I agree with this. I mean the common meme among the very religious tends to be "this life is unimportant." Really? Not according to the Bible! If life is unimportant, why did God place so much emphasis on it and on creation? Why is "death" considered the worst punishment? Why is committing murder considered a sin?
The Bible ALSO says that this life is temporary and that we should be dead to this life and that we should be looking forward to our REAL life (when Jesus comes). And that we should not love anything in the world because it's the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and something else.
So the Bible sends contradictory messages I guess and that's why people have contradictory beliefs.
But does God place importance on this life? Well, according to Christians, God couldn't just create people and give them heaven. He had to give them free will and had to let them choose him. (Although he gives a strange choice: me or torture... but that's another story). God did not want robots in heaven, so he created this life as a test for people, to see which ones deserve to be in heaven or something. So that's why God places importance on this life. Apparently, no one COULD get to heaven unless they went though the Earth first.
So the Bible sends contradictory messages I guess and that's why people have contradictory beliefs.
Yup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom
But does God place importance on this life? Well, according to Christians, God couldn't just create people and give them heaven. He had to give them free will and had to let them choose him. (Although he gives a strange choice: me or torture... but that's another story). God did not want robots in heaven, so he created this life as a test for people, to see which ones deserve to be in heaven or something. So that's why God places importance on this life. Apparently, no one COULD get to heaven unless they went though the Earth first.
(underlining and bolding mine) Yup. Which is very silly. It's God. It "can" do anything, according to belief. And BTW, I don't believe simply having love, and not having any desire to hate or do ill, means "a robot." Again: it's God. It could have made people all-loving, and to love Him, while still doing interesting, fascinating things, leading fulfilling lives and making choices. There are other choices than "good and heaven v. bad and hell." There can be choices among dozens or even hundreds of different things, ALL of which are good and NONE of which would earn someone an eternity of screaming, writhing agony.
As I choose not to believe God is a hideous, sadistic being which would even consider forcing such an option on people no matter what, I have to think that if there is a God, there probably isn't a hell, and/or it isn't necessarily all-knowing and prophetic in 100% of cases.
ETA: An example of how putting limits on the possibility of one hurting oneself/others, yet NOT having the people under one's control meaning the people have to "be robots" and "unable to make choices" and "unable to experience life": today I asked my children: "What did you want for lunch?" and then gave them choices that would make them happy and strong and would not hurt them. But they were still choices. If they had said, "Ice cream!" I would NOT have said, "Okay. I don't want you to be robots. So go ahead and have ice cream for lunch, and then dinner will be the same, and so on, every day, until you're both obese, have aching joints, can't think clearly, underperform and just overall get sick." Rather, I said, "Let's see, you can have a quesadilla with cheese and tomato soup. Or you can have just the soup and a stick of cheese. You can have some carrots on the side, or if you don't want carrots, how about apples? Or you can have leftovers from Thanksgiving on Thursday; there's plenty." They could have made a dozen different mix-and-match choices based on all those or even have come up with an alternative: "Well, can I have peanut butter and jelly instead?" ALL would have been just fine and ALL would have reflected their own likes and dislikes, how they were feeling today in particular, how hungry they were at today's lunch v., say, yesterday's lunch or v. breakfast today. They could gulp it down and run back to playing or eat slowly and all sit around the table and chat. There would have been NOTHING robotic about it and would have had EVERYTHING to do with their own personalities and uniqueness. The ONLY thing that would have been missing would have been the possibility of making a truly harmful choice. And they would have been happy. (And they were.)
So the idea of not allowing pain or harm means a robot, is pure silliness to me. If I can accomplish this as a pathetic little human and regarding something as mundane as a meal, how is it possible God, who is supposed to be all-powerful, couldn't do it?
Therefore that whole "if we could only choose the path that wouldn't harm us, we'd be robots" thing is pure silliness to me, and an excuse to the age-old question of why there is pain and death and suffering. It's yet another attempt for us to explain these things...we've used gods as an attempt to use them for many, many centuries - as far back as history can tell, certainly, and possibly as far back as archeology can tell: tens of thousands of years.
Nor does the whole "if we didn't know what pain was, we couldn't know what pleasure was because we wouldn't have that comparison" saw fly, IMO. According to the Bible, Adam and Eve, before the serpent, had never known ANYTHING negative. Not a single damned thing. Food was there for the picking, apparently it was nice and warm (since they were wandering around naked) and they were surrounded by nothing but pure love night and day. Yet, again according to the Bible, they were quite happy indeed. Right?
Again using children as an example: my children have never known the quality of not being loved. Ever. They have been surrounded by my and my husband's love since their birth. We do not withhold love as a punishment. As infants, when they cried in the night, I went to them rather than letting them "cry it out." I baby-wore each of them. Their friends are good to them. Has this turned them into monsters because they don't know hate by comparison? Hardly. Has it made them underdeveloped people who can never reach their true potential for not having suffered a lack? Hardly. Everyone remarks on how often my children say "I love you" to one another, to us and even occasionally, to their friends (it's adorable) and hug and kiss us and on a good day, each other. It's like the 60s around here. We are all over each other like puppies. Trust me when I tell you my children don't lack the knowledge of love is because they've never had "the opposite to compare it to." Nor are they stunted and unable to explore and learn due to only having been loved. Quite the opposite; they are constantly learning, constantly inquisitive and VERY MUCH have their own personalities. Therefore, bullshyte on the "you can't know goodness unless you have badness to compare it to" bit, as far as my own opinion goes, and like wise to the "you're a stunted robot if everything is positive" bit.
Silliness. Explanations and excuses for a God we probably can't come near to understanding, if It exists.
The Bible ALSO says that this life is temporary and that we should be dead to this life and that we should be looking forward to our REAL life (when Jesus comes). And that we should not love anything in the world because it's the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and something else.
Of course the Bible would say that - because like most religions, Christianity started as a cult. Yeah, that's right, a bona-fide Jim Jones, David Koresh cult.
Nearly all cults try to convince its followers to sever their ties to this life. It's all a matter of control. If the cult's followers denounce their connections to friends, family, careers, property, material possessions, and worldly pleasure, it leaves those followers with nothing to return to should they decide they want to leave. It also makes it that much easier for the followers to either commit suicide should the time come or for the followers to martyr themselves in the name of the cult.
This is why even Jesus is written as having said one must hate your parents and your children in order to become his disciple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom
So the Bible sends contradictory messages I guess and that's why people have contradictory beliefs.
It's also why putting any stock in the Bible's truthfulness is a big mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom
But does God place importance on this life? Well, according to Christians, God couldn't just create people and give them heaven.
God is supposed to be all-powerful. If God wanted to give people heaven right off the bat, he could have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom
He had to give them free will and had to let them choose him.
Why would anyone have to choose him in the first place? The concept of having to join the right cult and worship the right god in order to get into paradise is so ... primitive. Not to mention unbecoming for an omni-benevolent god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom
God did not want robots in heaven, so he created this life as a test for people, to see which ones deserve to be in heaven or something. So that's why God places importance on this life. Apparently, no one COULD get to heaven unless they went though the Earth first.
First of all, God may not have wanted robots in heaven, but that's exactly what he's going to get. The reason is because he's only going to accept those who march in lockstep with his own desires. That sounds pretty robotic to me. If he's only going to take those who throw themselves at his feet, then why not simply create humans who will throw themselves at his feet? It's almost as if he wanted to see some people be tortured forever. No matter the methodology, the end result will be robots in heaven, a bunch of bobbleheads that have no will of their own.
Secondly, tests are entirely superfluous to an omniscient God. What can God learn from a test that his omniscience wouldn't already tell him? Thus, to even create a human he knows will burn in hell is perhaps the most immoral action possible by any being - God or not.
I agree, it's true. But what you may not realize is that they believe that it's more compassionate to save their eternal soul (to prevent them from suffering in hell) than to give them some food to last a few more days.
It IS about compassion (in SOME cases), but a different outlook about what's more compassionate. Christians consider this life as a momentary thing, and believe that people shouldn't see it as important. Going hungry is no big deal, dying is no big deal. Having no material things is no big deal. The only thing that matters is to get to heaven after death.
Then why pray for the sick? Or for those having a difficult time? Or about money problems? Or about anything at all other than spiritual growth?
I meant they believe it for themselves. That they shouldn't try to achieve life's comforts. And what they believe about themselves, they also believe about others.
But of course, as usual, there are many Christians who don't believe the same way. And also, many Christians who don't follow their own beliefs.
This is human nature.
In any club or organization there are those who are not like how they should be.
Then why continue to eat? Or wear a coat? Or live in a house? Or buy things?
If I were God, I'm pretty sure I'd change My mind based on your posts. Does God read CD R&S?
I can just see it. "Oh SHYTE, I didn't think of that." (Smacks Self on Head) (Goes back to rewrite Bible with one sweep of magical Hand) (accepts Shrina into heaven just for the awesome debates)
I can't rep you again, so I can only stand up and clap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Of course the Bible would say that - because like most religions, Christianity started as a cult. Yeah, that's right, a bona-fide Jim Jones, David Koresh cult.
Nearly all cults try to convince its followers to sever their ties to this life. It's all a matter of control. If the cult's followers denounce their connections to friends, family, careers, property, material possessions, and worldly pleasure, it leaves those followers with nothing to return to should they decide they want to leave. It also makes it that much easier for the followers to either commit suicide should the time come or for the followers to martyr themselves in the name of the cult.
This is why even Jesus is written as having said one must hate your parents and your children in order to become his disciple.
It's also why putting any stock in the Bible's truthfulness is a big mistake.
God is supposed to be all-powerful. If God wanted to give people heaven right off the bat, he could have.
Why would anyone have to choose him in the first place? The concept of having to join the right cult and worship the right god in order to get into paradise is so ... primitive. Not to mention unbecoming for an omni-benevolent god.
First of all, God may not have wanted robots in heaven, but that's exactly what he's going to get. The reason is because he's only going to accept those who march in lockstep with his own desires. That sounds pretty robotic to me. If he's only going to take those who throw themselves at his feet, then why not simply create humans who will throw themselves at his feet? It's almost as if he wanted to see some people be tortured forever. No matter the methodology, the end result will be robots in heaven, a bunch of bobbleheads that have no will of their own.
Secondly, tests are entirely superfluous to an omniscient God. What can God learn from a test that his omniscience wouldn't already tell him? Thus, to even create a human he knows will burn in hell is perhaps the most immoral action possible by any being - God or not.
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If there really is no God, and we are simply the results of chemistry and biology, then those people have no less a right to be here than anyone else, as in that case, it doesn't come down to rights at all. If we're all the result of nature without any Godly interference then those people have no more responsibility to take up space wisely than anyone else. They didn't ask to be here, they're just...here. Like I am, like you are.
We are all over each other like puppies. Trust me when I tell you my children don't lack the knowledge of love is because they've never had "the opposite to compare it to." Nor are they stunted and unable to explore and learn due to only having been loved. Quite the opposite; they are constantly learning, constantly inquisitive and VERY MUCH have their own personalities. Therefore, bullshyte on the "you can't know goodness unless you have badness to compare it to" bit, as far as my own opinion goes, and like wise to the "you're a stunted robot if everything is positive" bit.
