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Old 12-29-2014, 12:28 AM
 
8,669 posts, read 4,841,402 times
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The answers are real people just don't listen to the Holy Spirit.
The scope of a threat to self destruction lies within the minds of every individual that seeks truth. But not all are strong enough to stand up to carnal fear and so doubt and greed take place of basic survival instincts and grow into unfruitfull behavior that the whole of society wars against. This is the Beast in the water spoken of in revelation. Water being soul or mind. When Jesus spoke of brother against mother we still see it today. How is that family is even capable of forsaking one another. And we are a collective family as a whole yet the accuser calls the poor lazy and undeserving. And the people in authority listen to the collective of liars in society. And this is called democracy. And so what is evil? How do you call it out? Really...
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Old 12-30-2014, 06:06 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,707 posts, read 30,881,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann View Post
Sigh ... here we go again. Dont believe the following? Check it out with your local rabbi.

Satan, as shown in Job, is an aspect of El, therefore a member of Elohim, the council of El. He is the adversary. Adversary to the purpose of El (God) and later adversary to the purpose of Messiah. Call it an internal dialogue, kinda like what appears throughout Shakespeare.

Members of the council of El, are aspects of El, are Raphael - the healer, Uriel, the warrior, Michael and Gabriel. There were one or two more.

Today we are all familiar with Ego, Superego, and Id - the Freudian construct.

The ancient Hebrews saw things a bit differently,

Our vision of Satan today comes from two places. Pluto, god of the underworld, because the creators of the Septuagint used the word Hades as the equivalent of sheol and then the demigod Pan, whose cult was deemed horribly sinful by the early Christians.

My advice? Focus on the message of Jesus, not upon the crappola that the haters try to feed you.
Wouldn't it have been easier to just say Satan is a title/salutation of a being who was sent to earth to be a adversary for g-d?
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Old 12-30-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 235,221 times
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Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
If a man creates an engine, and that engine creates/becomes evil, is the man not responsible?
Anyway, I never understood how an Angel could oppose a God for so long, or even any short amount of time.
Are Angels imbeciles? What is up with procrastination? Was heaven that imperfect and fallible that an Angel could turn with the tides? What stops others from turning in the future?

Now, In Islam they say Shaytan was a genie called Iblis, but the Quran also hints to Iblish being an angel of light, not a genie of smoke, yet it clearly says he is a genie given dominion over angels (who never turn, since they are angelic slaves and can't be otherwise). The idea is that angels are in Heaven because they don't have free-will like we do, otherwise God should have created us as infallible angels from the beginning. Are all angels eventually going to become like Satan, or are some infallible?

Thinking of evil as a separate force from our own nature is a good way to create an identity that combats our more evil baser instincts. Giving evil a face is a better way to separate it psychologically than thinking it is merely some immaterial force that can't be escaped from anywhere that a sentient being is. It just feels better to some people, especially if they were brought up with it and have no need to question it or the alternatives don't make sense "in their guts."
It may be beyond human understanding. Humans breath air and live, angels do not require air, they are spiritual beings. They do not age and they do not plan for retirement. In short, they have no human aspirations. And they do not have limited life spans. Angels were created to live forever with God. Satan was the rebellious one, he (it) attempted to be like God, but it failed from the start. Then, Satan (it) attempted to rally the other angels to take over heaven. His magic wand failed, it was an inferior product.

There is no such thing as human or angel infallibility. When God created humans and angels He gave them freewill. Satan turned against God, choosing to overthrow God and take over heaven. Unfortunately, Satan didn't read his angel manual. All angels must be obedient servants of God. When Satan waved his magic wand it made him bow to God. Frustrated, Satan tried some new tricks, but nothing worked. Satan could not eliminate God, make a new kingdom, or put those uppity angels in their place.

This idea makes humans feel inferior. God did not create the universe for humans. God created the universe to imprison Satan. It is a long story, one that is certain to depress everyone.

Last edited by earl012; 12-30-2014 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 12-30-2014, 09:41 PM
 
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Couple of clues and their pertinence. The covering Cherub satan the dragon, that old serpent. Now what does a snake do? It sheds its skin so covering cherub is referring to one that once covered us which was sin. But now Grace is our blood for God sent us a Savior Jesus the Christ. So that we can shed the covering cherub and inherit the kingdom. Guess it depends where you are in your walk with the Lord before you understand the meanings of his Wisdom. Other names fallen, lucifer, Liar is all that he is and Death is his absolution. If a being chooses to be a liar then he voluntarily gives into corruption. To define corruption.2 the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased. No foundation of Truth. And with out a foundation it will fail and fall. Meaning it will cease to exist. The universe and reality are built on Truth and one who denies this will not be part of it.
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Old 12-30-2014, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8185Qp5aJo
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Old 12-30-2014, 10:11 PM
 
8,669 posts, read 4,841,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meester-Chung View Post
Sorry but symbols in stories are older than the Greeks. Maybe study the other religions and look for the commonalities. It paints a picture spiritually speaking. I tried to talk to the Buddhist about the Nagas. No response.
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:00 PM
 
Location: California USA
1,714 posts, read 1,159,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom View Post
Sometimes Christians say that Satan was an angel, created by God, who disobeyed God and became God's opponent.

First of all, why do we give so much power to some angel? God's opponent? Really? We make him into some force which opposes the God force. So if the God force is good, the Satan force is evil.


But how did Satan (a fallen angel) all of a sudden became the source of evil?

When a person who was good and then starts to act evil, we don't all of a sudden go and say that this person become evil incarnate. So why do some think that Satan is evil incarnate? Like in a "father of lies", like in "source of evil"?

How did a misbehaving angel became A SOURCE OF EVIL?

I think this happened because people are not really clear on what they believe in. And there are many ideas which exist about forces of good and bad.

One idea says that there are two opposing gods, god of good and god of evil.

The other idea says that there are two forces (not individuals), the force of good and the force of evil.

Another idea says that Zeus (god of heaven) was one god, a good of creation, and Hades (god of hell) was a god in charge of the dead (so opposite of creation, maybe a god of endings). Hades also was not a "nice" god.

Satan is sometimes pictured as the king of hell, as the one in charge of hell (that would be equivalent to Hades).

Satan is sometimes pictured as the force responsible for people's condemnation. And sometimes people say that Satan is just a pawn in God's game and not an opposing force at all. So it's like the ideas of Satan are changeable in people's brain and one moment they see him as a fallen angel who is harmless (as far as God is concerned) and at another point he becomes a great force of evil with which God has to fight and which interferes with God's plans.

What I see is that people don't have a defined idea of who or what Satan really is. So their brain just vaguely attaches to all of these ideas interchangeably. Which is not logical because intermixing these ideas creates the idea that a fallen angel can become a force of evil itself.
I don't believe in the immortal soul b/c the Bible teaches otherwise and therefore by extension don't believe in the existence of hell (as most who think of hell...fiery place of eternal torment). It's important to understand Sheol (in the Hebrew), Hades (in the Greek) and Gehenna. Hell as used in some Bible translations becomes muddled and confusing.

Nevertheless, 1 John 5:19 states, "We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." The wicked one is Satan and he influences worldly affairs.

Jesus in John 8:44 indicates "That one was a manslayer when he began and he did not stand fast in the truth." If one did not stand fast in the truth then intuitively at one point he was "in the truth" and thus God did not create Satan but this spirit creature became Satan.

One more thing when Satan was tempting Jesus one of the temptations was offering Jesus dominion over all the world powers. It's interesting that Jesus did not refute Satan's assertion that he could deliver on his offer.

So for me Satan exists, influences many aspects of "the world" and was not created as evil or as an opposer but became Satan.

The Bible itself indicates that perfection is relative and that only God is perfect in the absolute sense. So, can perfect angels "fall"? yes. Can perfect man "fall"? yes. The idea that perfect angels fall is not new. There is an old statute in Madrid Spain (a very Catholic country) which depicts Satan/Devil/Lucifer whatever as a beautiful but corrupt angel who was tossed out of the heavens.
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Old 12-31-2014, 01:24 AM
 
8,669 posts, read 4,841,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
I don't believe in the immortal soul b/c the Bible teaches otherwise and therefore by extension don't believe in the existence of hell (as most who think of hell...fiery place of eternal torment). It's important to understand Sheol (in the Hebrew), Hades (in the Greek) and Gehenna. Hell as used in some Bible translations becomes muddled and confusing.

Nevertheless, 1 John 5:19 states, "We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." The wicked one is Satan and he influences worldly affairs.

Jesus in John 8:44 indicates "That one was a manslayer when he began and he did not stand fast in the truth." If one did not stand fast in the truth then intuitively at one point he was "in the truth" and thus God did not create Satan but this spirit creature became Satan.

One more thing when Satan was tempting Jesus one of the temptations was offering Jesus dominion over all the world powers. It's interesting that Jesus did not refute Satan's assertion that he could deliver on his offer.

So for me Satan exists, influences many aspects of "the world" and was not created as evil or as an opposer but became Satan.

The Bible itself indicates that perfection is relative and that only God is perfect in the absolute sense. So, can perfect angels "fall"? yes. Can perfect man "fall"? yes. The idea that perfect angels fall is not new. There is an old statute in Madrid Spain (a very Catholic country) which depicts Satan/Devil/Lucifer whatever as a beautiful but corrupt angel who was tossed out of the heavens.
This is an interesting point to make. For what the scriptures say the lake of Fire is the second death. Total annihilation. The absolute destruction of the soul, cease to exist forever, never come back. Sin is Death and even death will pass away. So eternal in the since of torment is wrong. When satan is dealt this card all that are with him will be destroyed. Revelation.
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:01 AM
 
Location: US
32,533 posts, read 22,166,735 times
Reputation: 2229
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveWisdom View Post
Sometimes Christians say that Satan was an angel, created by God, who disobeyed God and became God's opponent.

First of all, why do we give so much power to some angel? God's opponent? Really? We make him into some force which opposes the God force. So if the God force is good, the Satan force is evil.


But how did Satan (a fallen angel) all of a sudden became the source of evil?

When a person who was good and then starts to act evil, we don't all of a sudden go and say that this person become evil incarnate. So why do some think that Satan is evil incarnate? Like in a "father of lies", like in "source of evil"?

How did a misbehaving angel became A SOURCE OF EVIL?

I think this happened because people are not really clear on what they believe in. And there are many ideas which exist about forces of good and bad.

One idea says that there are two opposing gods, god of good and god of evil.

The other idea says that there are two forces (not individuals), the force of good and the force of evil.

Another idea says that Zeus (god of heaven) was one god, a good of creation, and Hades (god of hell) was a god in charge of the dead (so opposite of creation, maybe a god of endings). Hades also was not a "nice" god.

Satan is sometimes pictured as the king of hell, as the one in charge of hell (that would be equivalent to Hades).

Satan is sometimes pictured as the force responsible for people's condemnation. And sometimes people say that Satan is just a pawn in God's game and not an opposing force at all. So it's like the ideas of Satan are changeable in people's brain and one moment they see him as a fallen angel who is harmless (as far as God is concerned) and at another point he becomes a great force of evil with which God has to fight and which interferes with God's plans.

What I see is that people don't have a defined idea of who or what Satan really is. So their brain just vaguely attaches to all of these ideas interchangeably. Which is not logical because intermixing these ideas creates the idea that a fallen angel can become a force of evil itself.
Metaphor...
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:31 AM
 
Location: US
32,533 posts, read 22,166,735 times
Reputation: 2229
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
It may be beyond human understanding. Humans breath air and live, angels do not require air, they are spiritual beings. They do not age and they do not plan for retirement. In short, they have no human aspirations. And they do not have limited life spans. Angels were created to live forever with God. Satan was the rebellious one, he (it) attempted to be like God, but it failed from the start. Then, Satan (it) attempted to rally the other angels to take over heaven. His magic wand failed, it was an inferior product.

There is no such thing as human or angel infallibility. When God created humans and angels He gave them freewill. Satan turned against God, choosing to overthrow God and take over heaven. Unfortunately, Satan didn't read his angel manual. All angels must be obedient servants of God. When Satan waved his magic wand it made him bow to God. Frustrated, Satan tried some new tricks, but nothing worked. Satan could not eliminate God, make a new kingdom, or put those uppity angels in their place.

This idea makes humans feel inferior. God did not create the universe for humans. God created the universe to imprison Satan. It is a long story, one that is certain to depress everyone.
Where do you get this from?...
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