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This reminds me of the Unitarian/Universalist notion of community over creed. But inherently, Episcopalians aren't Episcopalians unless they have a creed to subscribe to -- otherwise they'd be UU's by another name. This is the Rubicon they haven't crossed, for all their openness.
That's a good point, although the creed they subscribe to is the Nicene Creed, and I can tell you that most Episcopalians I know don't literally buy into everything it says--but we are in love with our traditions and history, and reciting the creed (which is, by design, said after the sermon just in case the priest said something that contradicted it) is seen as a part of that continuity. Yes, I get that this means little to someone who wouldn't say a creed that they didn't really mean or who values creed over community or tradition.
Of course it also figures in that the Episcopal Church is an organization wherein people who do find value in the teachings of Jesus and don't want to give that up find a comfortable home. My deacon (it is an unpaid but ordained position in the Episcopal Church) bounced between the UU and the Episcopal Church before settling in. The UU told her she really didn't belong there because she was first and foremost a follower of the teachings of Christ, and the Episcopal Church told her she really didn't belong there because she wasn't sure Jesus was divine. Eventually, she found an Episcopal mentor who assured her she wasn't the only one who thought that way and that it really didn't matter--she could still be Anglican. She recently said to me, "If I found out tomorrow for certain that Jesus never existed, it would not change me because Truth is Truth."
So, it's not as black and white as you may think, although yes, that could vary from church to church, or more likely diocese to diocese.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
If I were to participate in such a "deep discussion" as an atheist, my guess is that I would be unwelcome to "officially" join the group and would be somewhat persona non grata even to participate, at least in some such congregations. The tension is that technically there are at least a few shibboleths that define what is an Episcopalian (or Presbyterian, or whatever) and these are not merely "play nice in the sandbox" generic goodness, they are theological in nature. To "officially" belong to such a group I would to an extent have to perjure and misrepresent myself.
No, your guess is wrong. However, the target participants of the Episcopal theological study group I spoke about are lay Christians who want to learn more Christianity and where they might find their niche in living it better. The first year is a study of the Old Testament with an accompanying text putting the scriptures into context and raising questions and discussion; the second year the New Testament with an accompanying text; the third year Diarmaid MacCulloch's Christianity, the First Three Thousand Years, and the fourth year a series of different writings on different aspects of Christianity. There are also some interim readings that all four years read together. The max number in a group (all four years represented) is 12.
But an atheist who wanted to study wouldn't be turned away, and it kind of surprises me that you think they would. One man who did the entire four years alongside me has never actually professed to be a Christian that I know of, although he was raised Catholic. He brought a lot to the discussion as a person with 32 years in recovery and a lifetime of managing mental illness. Intelligent and funny, he was great at pointing out other perspectives of the minor characters in bible stories.
Another participant's father was Methodist, her mother Jewish, and while they observed holidays culturally, she had no religious training. She is married to a Haitian Catholic woman, whose church of course does not accept their relationship, so she and her wife and their daughter attend Reform Temple on Friday night and an Episcopal Church on Sunday morning. She was hearing everything for the first time and able to point out to those of us who have heard the gospels all our lives just how antisemitic some of it sounds.
Another participant was raised Wiccan by her mother and in her thirties sought Christianity because the idea of a father God appealed to her, as her own father decided not to have anything to do with her prior to her birth and popped in here and there throughout her life to let her know it wasn't her, he just didn't want to be a dad. She brought a lot in with the Pagan perspectives and comparisons. There's no specific requirement for background or belief.
It's not as though we don't all have atheists in our lives. As a matter of fact, the aforementioned deacon is married to a man who is an English atheist Jew, never brought up with religion (his name is Christopher, that should give you a clue as to how Jewish his parents were, lol). He comes to church on occasion and everyone knows he doesn't believe in God and as far as I know, no one gives a rat's ass if he's atheist or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I don't know that I have a problem with this actually, if theists want to self-identify around some nucleus of theist ideology, however generic and warm and fuzzy, that is their right. It is tantalizing though how close some liberal Christian denominations come to just focusing on shared humanity and provoking to good works but yet can't eject the useless theological dogma that contributes basically nothing to the process.
But to us, it does contribute something. To you, no, but you don't get to decide that for us, mordant. You only get to decide that for yourself.
I'm a little disappointed in your categorization of our theist ideology as "generic and warm and fuzzy", mordant. You sound an awful lot like the fundamentalists when they attempt to disparage us as "not really Christian". It's NOT warm and fuzzy. That's the point. We might be warm and fuzzy with one another as a community, but we are there because the questions that we have are hard and we feel a sense of responsibility because of our beliefs to stand up for the people who are excluded and marginalized.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 10-23-2017 at 04:31 PM..
Reason: Misspelled MacCulloch's name.
That's a good point, although the creed they subscribe to is the Nicene Creed, and I can tell you that most Episcopalians I know don't literally buy into everything it says--but we are in love with our traditions and history, and reciting the creed (which is, by design, said after the sermon just in case the priest said something that contradicted it) is seen as a part of that continuity. Yes, I get that this means little to someone who wouldn't say a creed that they didn't really mean or who values creed over community or tradition.
Of course it also figures in that the Episcopal Church is an organization wherein people who do find value in the teachings of Jesus and don't want to give that up find a comfortable home. My deacon (it is an unpaid but ordained position in the Episcopal Church) bounced between the UU and the Episcopal Church before settling in. The UU told her she really didn't belong there because she was first and foremost a follower of the teachings of Christ, and the Episcopal Church told her she really didn't belong there because she wasn't sure Jesus was divine. Eventually, she found an Episcopal mentor who assured her she wasn't the only one who thought that way and that it really didn't matter--she could still be Anglican. She recently said to me, "If I found out tomorrow for certain that Jesus never existed, it would not change me because Truth is Truth."
So, it's not as black and white as you may think, although yes, that could vary from church to church, or more likely diocese to diocese.
No, your guess is wrong. However, the target participants of the Episcopal theological study group I spoke about are lay Christians who want to learn more Christianity and where they might find their niche in living it better. The first year is a study of the Old Testament with an accompanying text putting the scriptures into context and raising questions and discussion; the second year the New Testament with an accompanying text; the third year Diarmaid MacCulloch's Christianity, the First Three Thousand Years, and the fourth year a series of different writings on different aspects of Christianity. There are also some interim readings that all four years read together. The max number in a group (all four years represented) is 12.
But an atheist who wanted to study wouldn't be turned away, and it kind of surprises me that you think they would. One man who did the entire four years alongside me has never actually professed to be a Christian that I know of, although he was raised Catholic. He brought a lot to the discussion as a person with 32 years in recovery and a lifetime of managing mental illness. Intelligent and funny, he was great at pointing out other perspectives of the minor characters in bible stories.
Another participant's father was Methodist, her mother Jewish, and while they observed holidays culturally, she had no religious training. She is married to a Haitian Catholic woman, whose church of course does not accept their relationship, so she and her wife and their daughter attend Reform Temple on Friday night and an Episcopal Church on Sunday morning. She was hearing everything for the first time and able to point out to those of us who have heard the gospels all our lives just how antisemitic some of it sounds.
Another participant was raised Wiccan by her mother and in her thirties sought Christianity because the idea of a father God appealed to her, as her own father decided not to have anything to do with her prior to her birth and popped in here and there throughout her life to let her know it wasn't her, he just didn't want to be a dad. She brought a lot in with the Pagan perspectives and comparisons. There's no specific requirement for background or belief.
It's not as though we don't all have atheists in our lives. As a matter of fact, the aforementioned deacon is married to a man who is an English atheist Jew, never brought up with religion (his name is Christopher, that should give you a clue as to how Jewish his parents were, lol). He comes to church on occasion and everyone knows he doesn't believe in God and as far as I know, no one gives a rat's ass if he's atheist or not.
But to us, it does contribute something. To you, no, but you don't get to decide that for us, mordant. You only get to decide that for yourself.
I'm a little disappointed in your categorization of our theist ideology as "generic and warm and fuzzy", mordant. You sound an awful lot like the fundamentalists when they attempt to disparage us as "not really Christian". It's NOT warm and fuzzy. That's the point. We might be warm and fuzzy with one another as a community, but we are there because the questions that we have are hard and we feel a sense of responsibility because of our beliefs to stand up for the people who are excluded and marginalized.
This is another awesome post and speaks to the heart of experience as a primary teacher---not Scripture. John Wesley, late in life, said a primary interpretation of Scripture was to do no harm. I think Episcopalians get that idea, and, you, Mightyqueen, have given me some new insights into your denomination.
The way you word your response would indicate that you are very impressed with your own diction. Those who reject God must believe that there is no higher form of life than themselves- very vain.
I don't believe in a Christian God, but I do believe there is a Source of Life in the Universe. I know I'm only a cell in that organism. Of course, this is my own belief, and who really knows?
I don't believe in a Christian God, but I do believe there is a Source of Life in the Universe. I know I'm only a cell in that organism. Of course, this is my own belief, and who really knows?
I think that's a valid...place from where to exist.
That's a good point, although the creed they subscribe to is the Nicene Creed, and I can tell you that most Episcopalians I know don't literally buy into everything it says--but we are in love with our traditions and history, and reciting the creed (which is, by design, said after the sermon just in case the priest said something that contradicted it) is seen as a part of that continuity ...
So, it's not as black and white as you may think, although yes, that could vary from church to church, or more likely diocese to diocese.
Thanks for the explanation. Very interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
No, your guess is wrong ... an atheist who wanted to study wouldn't be turned away, and it kind of surprises me that you think they would.
I have no experience with it and assume it could potentially be a major malfunction for a minority of members and possibly a minority of congregations. I am accustomed to being ... discrete about it in everyday life, particularly my professional life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
But to us, it does contribute something. To you, no, but you don't get to decide that for us, mordant. You only get to decide that for yourself.
I certainly am not deciding it for anyone but myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I'm a little disappointed in your categorization of our theist ideology as "generic and warm and fuzzy", mordant. You sound an awful lot like the fundamentalists when they attempt to disparage us as "not really Christian". It's NOT warm and fuzzy. That's the point. We might be warm and fuzzy with one another as a community, but we are there because the questions that we have are hard and we feel a sense of responsibility because of our beliefs to stand up for the people who are excluded and marginalized.
I meant no disrespect. Quite the opposite actually. The more specific the dogma, the more authoritarian and exclusionary it tends to be, in my experience. I see it as a feature rather than a bug. I don't see how you'd be able to BE warm with one another unless you were de-emphasizing conformity to dogma as some sort of intrinsic virtue.
At this point in my life I don't think in terms of identifying "real" Christians so much as people who are free to embrace the humanity in themselves and in others. While I have an understandable tendency to see ANY sort of theology as cruft that could potentially get in the way of that, and to distrust it, I also recognize that's part of my own operant conditioning in fundamentalism, and try to keep that in mind.
I am not predisposed to seek community that involves religion, but am open to it in support of my wife, who lacks my conditioning experiences and therefore lacks my tendency to distrust it. I appreciate you sharing your thinking on your faith tradition as it's exactly the one we're looking at. It seems that we could possibly fit in without either experiencing or causing too much discomfort. Besides, it amuses me how the notion of a couple of unbelievers being accepted into a church would discomfit fundamentalists.
I have no experience with it and assume it could potentially be a major malfunction for a minority of members and possibly a minority of congregations. I am accustomed to being ... discrete about it in everyday life, particularly my professional life.
I certainly am not deciding it for anyone but myself.
I meant no disrespect. Quite the opposite actually. The more specific the dogma, the more authoritarian and exclusionary it tends to be, in my experience. I see it as a feature rather than a bug. I don't see how you'd be able to BE warm with one another unless you were de-emphasizing conformity to dogma as some sort of intrinsic virtue.
At this point in my life I don't think in terms of identifying "real" Christians so much as people who are free to embrace the humanity in themselves and in others. While I have an understandable tendency to see ANY sort of theology as cruft that could potentially get in the way of that, and to distrust it, I also recognize that's part of my own operant conditioning in fundamentalism, and try to keep that in mind.
I am not predisposed to seek community that involves religion, but am open to it in support of my wife, who lacks my conditioning experiences and therefore lacks my tendency to distrust it. I appreciate you sharing your thinking on your faith tradition as it's exactly the one we're looking at. It seems that we could possibly fit in without either experiencing or causing too much discomfort. Besides, it amuses me how the notion of a couple of unbelievers being accepted into a church would discomfit fundamentalists.
It amuses me also.
Thanks for a good discussion right here, mordant. I always get something from your posts.
In case you missed it, you win the all-time Mighty Queen Favorite Post Award for a response to one of my posts some years back. I said something to the effect that I wonder sometimes if I believe in God and a world beyond physical death simply because I don't want to think we are nothing but talking monkeys.
You responded that we are not just talking monkeys--we are story-telling monkeys. I have related that response to church friends as well as writer friends. Talk about Truth!
And I likewise would slightly disagree with you there.
To tell someone their beliefs are wrong,( incorrect or worse...ridiculous? Childish? As
others have done) Not cool, period.
What if someone believes that child porn is good, white people are superior to blacks or women are inferior to men?
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