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In my experience, very little of the church's income goes to anything but supporting the church and its members. Paying monthly bills, saving for the next fancy building addition, buying the pastor/preacher/minister a new house, and social events for the members consume nearly ALL of the income. Occasionally, there is a plea to support some "mission" or other, which is really just proselytizing.
Of course, there must be some churches out there which do more actual charitable work.
It's really going to be difficult to quantify, since churches are not required to share this information.
I would suggest you haven't visited many good churches. I'm sorry for your experience.
And as I've said on this very thread--a church is not a health club where you go to just get services. We do more than just teach a class once a week. We are actively involved in the community, and I'd suggest any church worth its salt also is.
Actually...now that I think about it, I think that's the majority of the issue here. Many people think of church as a place they go to once a week. The fact is, Christianity is about an entire way of life --not just attending a meeting weekly. So we affect people throughout the community in many ways other than just feeding their physical body, or conducting a weekly service for an hour.
The people of your church affect people throughout the community, sure. What does the church do? What amount of money does your church use to help out? How much time does your church spend helping people through the donations they receive? I am not talking about "We preach to people and hand out water" here, Pastor. I am talking about actually helping the community. I am also not talking about what the people of your congregation do on their own time, as that is irrelevant.
You always talk about how small your church is, and how it's dying off, yet you seem to think you somehow make a huge difference to the town. Please, explain to us exactly HOW.
What does your church do to help the community beyond preach to people and "minister"?
Just because what you present as facts aren't really relevant does not mean anyone is ignoring them. Using your own figures 87% of what a church spends is spent on itself and not any charitable work in the community . Of the remaining 13% I know from personal experience in a SB church that much of that will go not to actual charity but to proselytizing, otherwise known as missionary activity . You cannot put a firm number in it yourself . But even if it's only 3% , and I would bet on it being more like 10% but even 3 % puts the amount of budget a church spends on its own existence at 90% .
You asked for evidence and I provided DIRECT FINANCIAL statements and yet that wasn't good enough. People like you are just infuriating to reason with. You just want to find any reason to trash the positive elements of God's people and the church.
Do you really think a church should employ people for free and refuse to pay their operating costs to give more to charity?
You asked for evidence and I provided DIRECT FINANCIAL statements and yet that wasn't good enough. People like you are just infuriating to reason with. You just want to find any reason to trash the positive elements of God's people and the church.
Do you really think a church should employ people for free and refuse to pay their operating costs to give more to charity?
What wasn't good enough ? I based my objections off of your link . It shows a small amount of the budget goes to actual charitable work and most goes to the operating budget of the church . If you think this is incorrect then please point out where instead of whining . Go back to the numbers . Show me where there is more than a 10% budget for what could possibly be actual charity. Please . Deal with facts .The 13 % includes missionary work, which isn't charity but proselytizing . If you have facts then you can show me where I am wrong . Please proceed .
And I don't care how a church goes about its business . I am simply pointing out that contributing to a secretaries salary and a grounds crew to mow the church isn't charity to the community . What don't you get about that ?
As far as me trashing the church this thread is a direct response to your claim that religious people are more charitable . Why did you brag about that?Do you see any non theist whining about how mean you are to them ? So why do you whine when someone points out the flaws in your claim ?
Last edited by wallflash; 06-10-2016 at 02:44 PM..
The people of your church affect people throughout the community, sure. What does the church do? What amount of money does your church use to help out? How much time does your church spend helping people through the donations they receive? I am not talking about "We preach to people and hand out water" here, Pastor. I am talking about actually helping the community. I am also not talking about what the people of your congregation do on their own time, as that is irrelevant.
You always talk about how small your church is, and how it's dying off, yet you seem to think you somehow make a huge difference to the town. Please, explain to us exactly HOW.
What does your church do to help the community beyond preach to people and "minister"?
Every penny that comes into my church is put to operation of the church, and to ministries the church does. That is a charity. I'm sorry that you don't feel that we are a real charity because we don't do the things you consider a "charity".
None of the money is used to buy me a fancy car, a fancy house, or any of that nonsense. It's for ministries and operation of the church, as we minister physically and spiritually to the people in the town, those that come to our church, and those that don't.
As I pointed out earlier, I'd be happy to provide some examples, but we all know that my "good deeds" threads were not received well.
So now you are anti-church? You're anti-Bible, anti-Christian but apparently NOT an atheist. Sure sounds atheist to me.
None of those things fit the definition of an atheist.
There are lots of people in the world who believe in some sort of deity that's not your deity or not at least not understood according to your dogma, who are not inerrantists, religionists or church attendees. To be an atheist, they would have to disbelieve in any sort of deity.
If you want to be so eager to otherize people who don't agree with you, at least make the effort to accurately characterize them.
As far as me trashing the church this thread is a direct response to your claim that religious people are more charitable . Why did you brag about that?Do you see any non theist whining about how mean you are to them ? So why do you whine when someone points out the flaws in your claim ?
Why isn't it? Why must we use your definition of charity? it's charitable when you contribute moeny to the food pantry so they can pay a janitor to clean up? Or a lawn care service to mow the lawn but not a church?
Every penny that comes into my church is put to operation of the church, and to ministries the church does. That is a charity. I'm sorry that you don't feel that we are a real charity because we don't do the things you consider a "charity".
None of the money is used to buy me a fancy car, a fancy house, or any of that nonsense. It's for ministries and operation of the church, as we minister physically and spiritually to the people in the town, those that come to our church, and those that don't.
As I pointed out earlier, I'd be happy to provide some examples, but we all know that my "good deeds" threads were not received well.
You could give concrete examples of what percent of your budget goes to the community rather than to your operating costs, and give examples of these charities . You have been asked to do so a number of times . So why don't you?
And again, the point is NOT that churches don't do any charity work, but rather most of the money used by the churches does not go to charity but to the operating budget of a church, not including the benevolence budget or whatever you would call your budget for belong a homeless guy or a single mom needing aid . And so the money given by church members to operate THEIR church which serves THEIR needs isn't giving to charity , but rather funding an entity that I return serves the members . Those are called dues, not charitable giving .
Every penny that comes into my church is put to operation of the church, and to ministries the church does. That is a charity. I'm sorry that you don't feel that we are a real charity because we don't do the things you consider a "charity".
Perhaps for tax purposes and maybe even then only if you're talking about a religious organization.
But generically, a charity is an organization that helps the disadvantaged / needy / unfortunate in some practical way, and the effectiveness of the charity is measured by how high a percentage of contributions go to those disadvantaged / needy / unfortunate people. In other words if 97 cents on the dollar goes to the people you're being asked to donate to help, that's good. if 47 cents on the dollar goes to them, it's kind of awful. If 3 cents on the dollar goes to them, that's abysmal.
All I'm saying is that a church (especially the typical small rural or suburban one) often doesn't have enough money to pay the rent and the electric bill and the pastor, much less run some kind of actual charity like a food kitchen or a shelter for refugees or distribute warm clothing in winter to the homeless. The only reason it's not a scam in my view is that that isn't what you're proposing to do with donations. You're proposing to pay the rent and electric and the pastor and to teach people your dogma, basically. And if people choose to give for that purpose, whether or not I think it's a good use of donations, it's their privilege to do that. But I would argue that compared to a secular charity with a well defined purpose, a track record of effectiveness, and a low administrative overhead, it is throwing money down a hole if you care about actually helping as many people as possible in practical ways.
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