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a person only has to validate it for themself / not for anyone else
I agree, which is why I am anti-prosyletizing and against religious belief pushing its way into laws and schools. If everyone believed the above, then all would be well. Some religions do believe the above. Others, notably Christianity, do not. Christianity believes NO ONE but Christians may be saved; that is the entire basis of Christianity, no one achieves "heaven" without Christ. This means it is important for everyone to be saved and everyone to see the light, and that frequently extends to pushing that particular belief system, as we've all seen (for many centuries).
Now, if you do actually believe a person "only has to validate it for [himself]," then we're good and sure, I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
we validate it for ourself by developing discernment in our own daily life and relationships
I disagree that we validate hallucination/non-verifiable imagining by developing discernment in our own daily life and relationships. Where in your daily life and relationships do you hallucinate, then have others believe your hallucination was real though they themselves can't see it? Unless I'm misunderstanding that statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
do you truly live by "any body can be lying about anything, so I don't ever believe what anyone ever says about anything unless there is scientific evidence?"
I do believe that anyone can lie about anything, yes. Don't you? "I don't ever believe what anyone ever says about anything unless there is scientific evidence..." How odd...I didn't say that. (You did. ) Much less do I "live by" it; that's a tad dramatic, as I rarely even think about this particular chain of logic, actually, at least in a conscious v. subconscious way.
I use logic and reason: if someone says she had Cheerios for breakfast, I have no reason to disbelieve her as it is a normal, rational thing to eat cereal for breakfast, and something I have witnessed in the past, and not via a vision but in real time, with everyone else seeing exactly the same thing regardless of "beliefs." A Jew, a Muslim, a Christian and an atheist will all stand there and point and say, "Yup, she's eating Cheerios." Indeed, some child from an impoverished country who has never seen Cheerios will still see and describe this real-time experience: "The child is putting some sort of food into her mouth with a long thing with a round end."
If the same person, however, says she saw Vishnu come down on a cloud and strike a child with cancer, of course I'd require evidence, as that is not logical, not something others would be able to see even if the "visionary" were seeing it, and therefore of course it would require some sort of evidential support, not just a say-so.
This is basic logic. The "(never) (believe)ing what anyone ever says about ANYTHING" bit you put in there is hyperbole, and anti-logic as well as anti-discussion resolution. You're not attempting to resolve (or even engage rationally in) a conversation/topic; you're attempting to "shut up" the person you're arguing with, but again, you're using hyperbole, so it doesn't work.
However, if that isn't the case, and you do legitimately want an answer, even if your question was way, way off, I have given it above; hope it helps.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn
Because I honor the beliefs of Native Americans and I don't insist everyone agree with the fundamentalists in Podunk.
But in the end, it is only a belief system built on faith, and nothing more. I recall being in a meeting with an Indian group to do with hunting, and the one elder could not understand why they were not allowed to kill owls under "whiteman's law", which to their tribe was an omen of death. That didn't make it real though, does it?
+1. Unless one is trying to use their experience or revelation as a weapon against others, it really doesn't matter if it's valid to anyone else. An all-powerful God could reveal himself however he darn well pleases, and maybe it's not going to be the same experience across-the-board.
I agree with this.
Unfortunately, the underlined has been utlizied many, many times in the past, which I take exception to. But if a person wants to have his/her own personal revelation, and not push it into my laws, my children's schools, my workplace, Town Hall or wherever, and it's harmless to others physically as well, whom am I to say? Envision away.
Again, though, if a person is routinely having "visions," it could potentially indicate a mental health issue even if the visions don't result in harm to others. It doesn't HAVE to, but it's one giant red flag. IMO (and ONLY my opinion), that's something that shouldn't just be let go because who knows what's going on there, whether medication may be needed, whether the disease will progress to become harmful and so on. So I don't always believe "having visions" is entirely harmless; they could indicate issues that might harm the visionary him/herself, and/or others, down the road.
But an otherwise mentally healthy individual believing s/he has had a talk with God, and feels wonderful about it? I'm nobody to say yea or nay to that. Perhaps it did happen, who knows. Asking me to BELIEVE it myself, though...sorry, that would require evidence, absolutely.
Unfortunately, the underlined has been utlizied many, many times in the past, which I take exception to. But if a person wants to have his/her own personal revelation, and not push it into my laws, my children's schools, my workplace, Town Hall or wherever, and it's harmless to others physically as well, whom am I to say? Envision away.
regarding "use their experience as a weapon against others".....you do realize that when a person, for instance posting on CD, uses harsh ugly words to ridicule, demean, mock, belittle, and insult, that is using your own beliefs and words a weapon of violence against others.
How does this show that drug induced visions are authentic and actual experiences of the Divine ?
Lol...if you want proof...I cannot give it to you. I've spoken with people who have participated in NA peyote ceremonies. They speak of having visions during the ceremony. I take their word for it.
I've never heard a NA refer to the "Divine". Some may....but I've yet, in decades of knowing Apaches and Navajo and Hopis, hear one say something like, "I had an experience with the Divine in my vision". "Or our ancestors created this dance to honor the Divine."
regarding "use their experience as a weapon against others".....you do realize that when a person, for instance posting on CD, uses harsh ugly words to ridicule, demean, mock, belittle, and insult, that is using your own beliefs and words a weapon of violence against others.
Is that what this is about?
Or is this thread about believing or disbelieving religious visions?
If the thread is now about using words as weapons, this idea may now warrant its own thread. These are two different ideas; related in the way you've just related them, but definitely not one topic.
The topic (your own topic) was, if I'm understanding this correctly, validating religious experience.
Which would you rather discuss? If you start a thread about "using experience as a weapon" via using words, I will read it and will be happy to respond to it.
Now. To bring things down a bit to reality here:
1. A frequent method of getting someone to come to Jesus in the Middle Ages was to imprison the person's entire family, including the children, take his/her belongings and standing/occupation away permanently, then insert sharp, heated iron objects into the person's body cavities and pull limbs, fingers and toes out of sockets,teeth out of jaws and nails out of fingers and toes; perhaps rape the person (a frequently employed side-method for females but sometimes for males too), and/or screw iron pieces into the eyes until the eyes burst, among other methods. When the person finally confessed, he might be given over to God via being burned on a pyre. As accomplices, his family too might be burned to death.
2. Sometimes, I come on C-D and say mocking things.
Just putting your idea of "violence" in perspective here.
But in the end, it is only a belief system built on faith, and nothing more. I recall being in a meeting with an Indian group to do with hunting, and the one elder could not understand why they were not allowed to kill owls under "whiteman's law", which to their tribe was an omen of death. That didn't make it real though, does it?
It's real to them. I happen to respect that. If you don't....I can't imagine they would be surprised. They are quite used to people disrespecting their beliefs.
I see nothing wrong with faith. I am a person of faith.....who has neither the need nor the desire to prove what I believe or justify my faith. It belongs to me. Whether you or anyone else accepts what I believe does not matter. It is my truth. Not your's.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 06-30-2016 at 11:51 AM..
It's real to them. I happen to respect that. If you don't....I can't imagine they would be surprised. They are quite used to people disrespecting their beliefs.
People without any religious beliefs at all are quite used to being disrespected too, Dew. We've been used to it, collectively, for many many many centuries now. (And by "disrespected" I mean...well, sometimes killed, sometimes run out of town, sometimes just told we're going to burn in hell. Sometimes parents telling their kids not to play with our kids, sometimes not being able to find employment, being shunned in general...as for more recently in history, sometimes just being considered devil-influenced and bound for hell...stuff like that...)
With that said, I don't disrespect anyone else's beliefs until they impinge upon my life in a negative way (generally, through control or attempted control of some kind). At that point I absolutely will point out the absurdity of the beliefs, not to disrespect - because how do I know what's really happening out there in the cosmos? - but to hopefully get the person to see that his/her way of looking at things is not necessarily the be-all and end-all and may not even be accurate, ergo, s/he has no business attempting to "change" my beliefs (and way of life) to his/hers.
Now if a person says to himself, "These are my beliefs. I feel them strongly but I'm not God, so who am I to say? They make me happy and that's enough," and DOESN'T go about attempting to change the world over to match those beliefs, then I'm good. Just my personal view on this subject.
And actually, some religions do take this tack: that there are many paths to God, etc. So not every single religion seeks to change others over to its way of thinking. Those are the belief systems I can definitely respect, as they allow not only for faith among themselves, but for a knowledge that they DON'T know it all for sure...nobody does. I respect that because it seems incredibly mature and evolved to me.
People without any religious beliefs at all are quite used to being disrespected too, Dew.
Funny thing....I was just going to edit my post and put that in. I'm well aware that being disrespected is not limited to people with religious beliefs and I was going to make my post more inclusive.
The Universe has obviously put us on the same wavelength. Once again.
Funny thing....I was just going to edit my post and put that in. I'm well aware that being disrespected is not limited to people with religious beliefs and I was going to make my post more inclusive.
The Universe has obviously put us on the same wavelength. Once again.
Now that I can respect.
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If everyone believed the above, then all would be well. Some religions do believe the above. Others, notably Christianity, do not. Christianity believes NO ONE but Christians may be saved; that is the entire basis of Christianity, no one achieves "heaven" without Christ. This means it is important for everyone to be saved and everyone to see the light, and that frequently extends to pushing that particular belief system, as we've all seen (for many centuries).
