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I am unsure what you are asking, but If you are wondering why I credit SOME of the writings in the "spiritual fossil record" it is because they provide a source of the consciousness I encountered in deep meditation. The descriptions of Jesus and His descriptions of the God He called His Father are exactly like the characteristics of the consciousness I encountered, I mean EXACTLY! The experience was so profound and life-changing that it set me on a course to explain it to my intellect. I succeeded and I have a plausible set of hypotheses consistent with extisting scientific knowledge that support my views.
I heard you make this claim many times but have seen no scientific evidence to support your view. Do you care to supply it?
That makes a bit more sense to me than the "lack of belief" claim of what I call "Wimp Atheism".
At least it kinda takes a stand.
We've been through this a lot of times. As long as you understand that the view atheism that I hold and it's the same as a number of others here old, is the one I quoted and what we are referencing when we talk. So to me (and I think I can speak generally and say "us") atheism is NOT rendered null and void.
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Originally Posted by Arach Angle
How do you feel about withholding the very valid conclusion that little non living pieces of the universe interact in such a way that our region of space is better describe as alive then not alive?
I don't know if I would accept this.
I actually run into a problem here and I know this is an area where I part ways with a number of other atheists, I think that EVERYTHING is mechanical and deterministic.
So, play along with me a for a moment and let's just accept that I'm right. I pulled the definition for life off of google as:
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the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
This seems to be what most of us would accept life as. But what if everything is just mechanical? What makes me growing old and dying so much different then a star being formed and exploding at the end of its life?
I'm not sure. I feel it is hard to categorize life if we accept this.
We've been through this a lot of times. As long as you understand that the view atheism that I hold and it's the same as a number of others here old, is the one I quoted and what we are referencing when we talk. So to me (and I think I can speak generally and say "us") atheism is NOT rendered null and void.
Yeah...you play that "Lack of Belief in Deities" fluff that I see now.
The 40 years I was Atheist, I didn't play that "Wimp Atheism" game. I took the position that no Gods existed...and I stood it with conviction. I never cared that anyone believed in a God...but I let them know in no uncertain terms that they had been snowed and/or suckered.
As then, I still feel any other positions as respects God existence are unreasonable...because, either one is of the view a God exists, or of the view a God does not exist. That is the bottom line.
"Knowledge claims" (agnosticism) and what might be "possible" means squat...except to those that don't have the fortitude to take a stand and need an "out" or some qualifier to hide behind.
IMO...the kind of Atheism you describe is of such pathetic substance...I don't even give it credit as a meritorious position.
I was ignorant back then...I never acknowledged or even really ever considered that God could be anything other than Religious Deities or Mythical Gods.
I was then taught...you know about it. I opened my mind and gained knowledge. I determined the existence of God Entities by how "G-O-D" is defined and identified by attributes...based upon facts and what is objectively known.
I now hold a "God Exists" position...the same way I held the "No God Exists" view for those 4 decades...with conviction.
I am unsure what you are asking, but If you are wondering why I credit SOME of the writings in the "spiritual fossil record" it is because they provide a source of the consciousness I encountered in deep meditation. The descriptions of Jesus and His descriptions of the God He called His Father are exactly like the characteristics of the consciousness I encountered, I mean EXACTLY! The experience was so profound and life-changing that it set me on a course to explain it to my intellect. I succeeded and I have a plausible set of hypotheses consistent with extisting scientific knowledge that support my views.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
I heard you make this claim many times but have seen no scientific evidence to support your view. Do you care to supply it?
Another bogus analogy.
A "lamp" is not ever defined as or called a "penis"...or visa-versa.
Completely unlike "ALL" as "GOD".
I learn more about you with every post...now you have "penis" on your mind. Telling.
You've completely avoided the point, which, whatever.
Also, what does having "penis" on my mind tell you exactly?
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Originally Posted by GldnRule
Atheism means (from Dictionary.com):
atheism Translate Button
[ey-thee-iz-uh m]
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
That makes a bit more sense to me than the "lack of belief" claim of what I call "Wimp Atheism".
At least it kinda takes a stand.
I'm sure you're very not a wimp. But that doesn't make you right.
You've completely avoided the point, which, whatever.
Also, what does having "penis" on my mind tell you exactly?
I'm sure you're very not a wimp. But that doesn't make you right.
It tells me just that. Of all the countless things you could have thought of for your analogy...you thought of a "penis" for it. You must have some kind of mental propensity to think about "penis"...for whatever reason.
I just noted a expert provided definition for Atheism that had a much more substantial position.
It was the "Lack of Belief" definition of Atheism that I referred to as "wimpy". It is still a definition...but is one of bereft of any real conviction.
It tells me just that. Of all the countless things you could have thought of for your analogy...you thought of a "penis" for it. You must have some kind of mental propensity to think about "penis"...for whatever reason.
It also tells me something about you - that you're discussing my use of "penis" but not "lamp"
Anyway...
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I just noted a expert provided definition for Atheism that had a much more substantial position.
It was the "Lack of Belief" definition of Atheism that I referred to as "wimpy". It is still a definition...but is one of bereft of any real conviction.
"Lack of belief" is just as much of an "expert definition" (since that is so obviously important to you for Odin knows what reason).
It is absolutely not "bereft of any real conviction"
It's the conviction to state my belief as it is and not get suckered in by your attempts at misdirection (like the ridiculous nature=god. nature exists so atheism is false thing you had going on).
Refer to the thread topic.
Yes, I accept for the possibility for a god though I am as certain as I am about anything that there are no gods. I'm am about as certain that there are no gods as I am that the Earth will rotate so that where I live will face the sun tomorrow - quite certain, but not absolutely [by it's most expert definition] certain.
If I became aware of evidence that led me to believe in a god, I would believe in a god (I might even switch to belief in a god based on no evidence - I don't control my beliefs, they are just what I happen to believe). Having conviction in an idea in the face of evidence isn't a virtue.
It also tells me something about you - that you're discussing my use of "penis" but not "lamp"
Anyway...
"Lack of belief" is just as much of an "expert definition" (since that is so obviously important to you for Odin knows what reason).
It is absolutely not "bereft of any real conviction"
It's the conviction to state my belief as it is and not get suckered in by your attempts at misdirection (like the ridiculous nature=god. nature exists so atheism is false thing you had going on).
Refer to the thread topic.
Yes, I accept for the possibility for a god though I am as certain as I am about anything that there are no gods. I'm am about as certain that there are no gods as I am that the Earth will rotate so that where I live will face the sun tomorrow - quite certain, but not absolutely [by it's most expert definition] certain.
If I became aware of evidence that led me to believe in a god, I would believe in a god (I might even switch to belief in a god based on no evidence - I don't control my beliefs, they are just what I happen to believe). Having conviction in an idea in the face of evidence isn't a virtue.
"Lamp" (or any other such object) would be rather ordinary to see mentioned in an analogy on a general discussion board with strangers on the interweb (one for Religion & Spirituality to boot)..."penis", not so much.
MOF, never saw it before in all the years I've been on this board...that is how odd it is.
I find it curious that you give all the "expert definitions" of "Atheism" equal billing, and say they carry the same merit....but you don't do that for all "expert definitions" of "God".
Or do you hold with the same conviction that "God" can be just as much "Something of Supreme Value" as it can be a "Religious Deity"?
I gave you the evidence for "God". You have it.
What we know as "ALL THERE IS" , "The Universe", etc, fully qualifies definitively, and is self-evidenced to objectively exist.
Your only "out" for denying that...is that you don't accept "Something of Supreme Value" as a valid definition of "God".
If you did...then you certainly have evidence for the existence of that which is "God" to us.
"Lamp" (or any other such object) would be rather ordinary to see mentioned in an analogy on a general discussion board with strangers on the interweb (one for Religion & Spirituality to boot)..."penis", not so much.
MOF, never saw it before in all the years I've been on this board...that is how odd it is.
Using the forum search function:
There have been 992 uses of the word "lamp" in this forum
And 770 uses of the word "penis"
Fairly similar amounts
Also, there are only 81 instances of the word "interweb", which you used, having been used in the forum.
So, again, it's curious that the word "penis" was so interesting to you.
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I find it curious that you give all the "expert definitions" of "Atheism" equal billing, and say they carry the same merit....
I'm not sure that I've said that.
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Or do you hold with the same conviction that "God" can be just as much "Something of Supreme Value" as it can be a "Religious Deity"?
Your only "out" for denying that...is that you don't accept "Something of Supreme Value" as a valid definition of "God".
We've gone over this. Remember that stuff about "theory"?
Words can have multiple, sometimes disparate, meanings.
I might say that Mike Trout is a god.
This certainly does not imply that I believe that he's a religious deity.
And it would be asinine to assert, "You said Mike Trout is a god, so you can't be an atheist".
It's the same word
With two different meanings.
Your claim that god=nature, nature exists, thus atheism is wrong is as ridiculous as you trying to publish an article in a biology magazine because someone said you were a "dodo" and you're not extinct.
Using the forum search function:
There have been 992 uses of the word "lamp" in this forum
And 770 uses of the word "penis"
Fairly similar amounts
Also, there are only 81 instances of the word "interweb", which you used, having been used in the forum.
So, again, it's curious that the word "penis" was so interesting to you.
We've gone over this. Remember that stuff about "theory"?
Words can have multiple, sometimes disparate, meanings.
I might say that Mike Trout is a god.
This certainly does not imply that I believe that he's a religious deity.
And it would be asinine to assert, "You said Mike Trout is a god, so you can't be an atheist".
It's the same word
With two different meanings.
Your claim that god=nature, nature exists, thus atheism is wrong is as ridiculous as you trying to publish an article in a biology magazine because someone said you were a "dodo" and you're not extinct.
I said "lamp (or any other such object)"...you forgot all the "other such objects". Better get searchin!
I also said, "mentioned in an analogy"...you musta missed that too.
YOU are the one that obviously had the unprompted mental propensity to think about male genitalia to put forth an analogy. I noted how odd it was you chose that, and that it was obviously indicative of your mindset.
Then you actually "search" it! Oh, man!! The board hasn't been this amusing in a long time. THANX!
Also...if you don't want all meanings of "God" considered...then specify and qualify it.
Don't ever just state that "God" doesn't exist...be clear you are redacting and cherry-picking the definition of God, and excising those meanings that denote entities that actually objectively exist...so you can maintain that wonderful wishy-washy "Lack of belief" position, and try to stave off Godophobia flare-ups.
What is even more rich...is the determination that one should adopt a "Lack of Belief" position, based upon a premise of "No Evidence"...is faulty logic from the get-go.
It's nothing but an Argument From Ignorance. You can't use "No Evidence" to logically make ANY determination other than, "there is no evidence".
"No evidence" is a flawed premise from the jump. You can't logically use "No Evidence" as evidence to conclude what position to adopt.
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