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I have looked ino this a bit and, while I'm willing to be proven wrong (now would be a good time) all the Evidence that the apostles died for their faith comes from Acst, written by Luke, and I wouldn't trust either writing further than I could throw it, and various Christians tracts written for polemic purposes.
The only source I am inclined to give much credit too is the account of the death of James (brother of Jesus, not son of Zebedee as in Acts)in Josephus. That was in fact one of the reasons I was sure here was a real Jesus at all, but then I began o wonder whether it was the same James at all, but after a discussion with Pneuma here, I was a bit more inclined to credit this as being the brother of Jesus. Though it does tend to look like a power sruggle killing rather than dying for his Faith.
I added some extra-biblical texts and authors mentioned, to my post after you replied to it, as follows....
A book written by C. Bernard Ruffin entitled 'The Twelve' lists sources of early records of the apostles. He listed the following sources. He said other writers from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries give us more information that the apostles did exist. One of these was written by Papias (A.D. 60-135). He was the bishop of Hierapolis, in what is now Turkey. He was a disciple of John. St. Clement of Rome (d. 101) was a disciple of Peter and Paul and served as pope between A.D. 91-101. Another writer was Iranaeus (A.D. 120-202) the bishop of Lyon (in what is now France). Other reliable writings belong to Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-217). He was an eminent Greek theologian and hymnist. Others were Hippolytus (A.D. 170-236), an author of a number of theological works; Tertullian (A.D. 145-221, a Latin-speaking African theologian, Origen (A.D. 185-254), an Egyptian teacher and theologian and St. Jerome (342-420), an Italian scholar and translator. These writings include bits and pieces about the apostles and are what many of our churches have used, along with the Bible, as a basis for their individual histories.
Another source about Eusebius and the Early Church quoted the writings of Clement in the document 'Outlines Box VI.' He writes about Peter, James, and John. He states that James the Righteous was chosen as Bishop of Jerusalem. Few other writers refer to this, but church history still includes them.
Other evidence for Peter’s martyrdom can be found in early church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Tertullian and more. The early, consistent and unanimous testimony is that Peter died as a martyr.
Nice going. I love it when a believer inadvertantly scores a point for the opposing team.
Yet another example of the predictable theiopologist methodology of projecting their own shortcomings onto atheist polemic and totally ignoring all the evidence and pretending it is jus an only-a-theory-supported with unsound mind -experiments.
They do exactly the same with evolution.
And it's so nice to have you back (I swear I'd let them take off both my feet if I though it would save yours) and I miss LI. Where's he go to?
And I miss Arach and Goldie, too. Though rather as one misses a bad toothache when it vanishes.
I added some extra-biblical texts and authors mentioned, to my post after you replied to it, as follows....
A book written by C. Bernard Ruffin entitled 'The Twelve' lists sources of early records of the apostles. He listed the following sources. He said other writers from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries give us more information that the apostles did exist. One of these was written by Papias (A.D. 60-135). He was the bishop of Hierapolis, in what is now Turkey. He was a disciple of John. St. Clement of Rome (d. 101) was a disciple of Peter and Paul and served as pope between A.D. 91-101. Another writer was Iranaeus (A.D. 120-202) the bishop of Lyon (in what is now France). Other reliable writings belong to Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-217). He was an eminent Greek theologian and hymnist. Others were Hippolytus (A.D. 170-236), an author of a number of theological works; Tertullian (A.D. 145-221, a Latin-speaking African theologian, Origen (A.D. 185-254), an Egyptian teacher and theologian and St. Jerome (342-420), an Italian scholar and translator. These writings include bits and pieces about the apostles and are what many of our churches have used, along with the Bible, as a basis for their individual histories.
Another source about Eusebius and the Early Church quoted the writings of Clement in the document 'Outlines Box VI.' He writes about Peter, James, and John. He states that James the Righteous was chosen as Bishop of Jerusalem. Few other writers refer to this, but church history still includes them.
Other evidence for Peter’s martyrdom can be found in early church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Tertullian and more. The early, consistent and unanimous testimony is that Peter died as a martyr.
But don't you see that they are Christians merely rehashing the claims of the Bible - mainly Acts? I know there are a lot of claims about a string of people who knew people who knew John in Ephesus who was for sure the disciple of Jesus, for all he'd been killed by Herod Agrippa, according to Acts. Do you see the problem?
Yet another example of the predictable theiopologist methodology of projecting their own shortcomings onto atheist polemic and totally ignoring all the evidence and pretending it is jus an only-a-theory-supported with unsound mind -experiments.
They do exactly the same with evolution.
And it's so nice to have you back (I swear I'd let them take off both my feet if I though it would save yours) and I miss LI. Where's he go to?
And I miss Arach and Goldie, too. Though rather as one misses a bad toothache when it vanishes.
It seems like there are a few people missing these days. This place doesn't really seem the same without them -- even my erstwhile opponents like Jeffbase and Vizio.
It seems like there are a few people missing these days. This place doesn't really seem the same without them -- even my erstwhile opponents like Jeffbase and Vizio.
Random Factors,yes, where are they now? .... The Rapture isn't due is it?
Random Factors,yes, where are they now? .... The Rapture isn't due is it?
Viz seems to be being persecuted because only he has eyes to see the truth and Satan's evil puppets are trying to keep the rest of us in darkness. The struggle is real folks. He did check in as recently as the 25th.
Well, since you're so interested in their deaths and open to study without any preconceived bias, why don't YOU take the time to look them up? Peace
Start with this comment naming authors....
A book written by C. Bernard Ruffin entitled 'The Twelve' lists sources of early records of the apostles. He listed the following sources. He said other writers from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries give us more information that the apostles did exist. One of these was written by Papias (A.D. 60-135). He was the bishop of Hierapolis, in what is now Turkey. He was a disciple of John. St. Clement of Rome (d. 101) was a disciple of Peter and Paul and served as pope between A.D. 91-101. Another writer was Iranaeus (A.D. 120-202) the bishop of Lyon (in what is now France). Other reliable writings belong to Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 153-217). He was an eminent Greek theologian and hymnist. Others were Hippolytus (A.D. 170-236), an author of a number of theological works; Tertullian (A.D. 145-221, a Latin-speaking African theologian, Origen (A.D. 185-254), an Egyptian teacher and theologian and St. Jerome (342-420), an Italian scholar and translator. These writings include bits and pieces about the apostles and are what many of our churches have used, along with the Bible, as a basis for their individual histories.
So your sources are all Christians - believers just like you; writing about what the Bible says; their 'evidence' comes from what they get from the Bible; they say that they existed because they believed the Bible is true. No different than offering W.L Craig as evidence that Jesus existed.
Quote:
Another source about Eusebius and the Early Church quoted the writings of Clement in the document 'Outlines Box VI.' He writes about Peter, James, and John. He states that James the Righteous was chosen as Bishop of Jerusalem. Few other writers refer to this, but church history still includes them.
Ah yes! Eusebius! The greatest 'liar for Jesus' the Church has ever produced...
The great religious historian, Eusebius, ingenuously remarks that in his history he carefully omitted whatever tended to discredit the church, and that he piously magnified all that conduced to her glory”
{Robert Green Ingersoll. "The Ghosts". (1877).}
The gravest of the ecclesiastical historians, Eusebius himself, indirectly confesses that he has related whatever might redound to the glory, and that he has suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace, of religion. Such an acknowledgment will naturally excite a suspicion that a writer who has so openly violated one of the fundamental laws of history has not paid a very strict regard to the observance of the other; and the suspicion will derive additional credit from the character of Eusebius, which was less tinctured with credulity, and more practised in the arts of courts, than that of almost any of his contemporaries.
{Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 3 (1776).}
"That it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment"
{Eusebius. The title for chapter 32 of the twelth book of Evangelical Preparation}
In a book where Eusebius is proving that the pagans got all their good ideas from the Jews, he lists as one of those good ideas Plato's argument that lying, indeed telling completely false tales, for the benefit of the state is good and even necessary. Eusebius then notes quite casually how the Hebrews did this, telling lies about their God, and he even compares such lies with medicine, a healthy and even necessary thing. Someone who can accept this as a 'good idea' worth both taking credit for and following is not the sort of person to be trusted.
{Richard Carrier, Footnote 6 from "The Formation of the New testament Canon"}
Quote:
Other evidence for Peter’s martyrdom can be found in early church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus, Tertullian and more. The early, consistent and unanimous testimony is that Peter died as a martyr.
Just more of the same then. Christian testimony.
So all you have then is the testimony of Christians who claim the stories are true...because they believe that they were...because it's in the Bible.
So let's try again shall we. Do you have any verifiable evidence for the existence of the apostles that doesn't come from Christians?
Good question about the will of god aka what does god want us to believe
The will of god is always the same
Life truth and love
Any beliefs that fall in line with that are the will of god
But don't you see that they are Christians merely rehashing the claims of the Bible - mainly Acts? I know there are a lot of claims about a string of people who knew people who knew John in Ephesus who was for sure the disciple of Jesus, for all he'd been killed by Herod Agrippa, according to Acts. Do you see the problem?
Rbbi's will give us his usual of course. Same as he always gives....
'Just because they are Christians it doesn't mean they are not reliable witnesses.'
A bit like saying....
He's a Ford car salesman so we should trust his words when he says that Fords are the best cars in the world.'
One can find martyrs for every religion and for many political stances. Does this mean that each and every religion is the one true one? First Nations, Jews, Muslims, Buddests, Sikhs and Hindu have all died for their belief, not just Christians. Many of Pagan beliefs were put to death because they would not accept Christianity. The willingness to die for one's belief is a measure of the strength of that belief not the truth of it. Perhaps to Christians who use martyrs as proof of being right the deaths of non Christians for their beliefs, even at the hand of Christians is totally unimportant. Christians were even willing to die at the hands of other Christians to die for the way they believed in Jesus that was different.
So unless less you place a value to the lives of Christians only, martyrs is a very weak way to try to prove that your religion is true.
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