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The 'really happened' symbolic -metaphor' theory (close to Mystic's learning curve) is a neat one, but -as I said to Mystic (or it may have been pneuma) it seem to Miss as a teaching - point. Was all that really needed just to shock us into perfect plaster saints?
We had the Spanish new world conquest, tai P'ing rebellion, the Holocaust and Khmer Rouge and still we haven't got the point.
I just have to say that to me, it was a real (rather political) event that got totally overlaid by a theological concept because it gave rise to a religion, and because some people don't seem to be able to buy the religious-theological claims, it gets turned into a metaphor.
Juts sayin' -unless someone wants some arguin'.
Welcome back
As I've said in other threads, I appreciate your approach to Christianity, even though it still seems way to magical for my tastes (despite your efforts to ground it in energy, dark matter, etc.). I think that the world would be a much more wholesome and rational place if the approach that you take to Christianity (and religion, generally) was the rough model for all Christian/religious views.
Thank you, Gaylen. That is high praise indeed coming from someone I respect highly.
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I, personally, don't think that Jesus was sent on any sort of special mission (or, at least, no more or less so than any of the rest of us), or that the Bible is anything more, or less, spiritually profound than any work of art that attempts to deal with deep issues of meaning in our lives. So, really, I wouldn't have much of anything to add to this thread, except for the fact that I have tendency toward philosophical speculation and science-fiction writing, so I try to keep an open mind and look for ways in which things that seem obviously false when taken in a literal sense could nevertheless be "true" in some "deeper" or more artistic/spiritual sense. Classic example: I don't think that God literally created humans from the dust of the Earth, and yet this concept does, nevertheless, point to a profoundly spiritual truth: We are, literally, "from the Earth" - indeed, ultimately from the "dust" of exploded stars. This is an awesome concept that the Bible gets right in some sense - we are composed of the seemingly inanimate material of the Earth/universe - even though I think the Bible buries this awesome truth in the language of fairy tale/poetic imagery.
The idea of 'being sent" versus "being evolved" gets snagged on the presumptions behind the changes wrought by evolution. As you know, I believe that our consciousness is merely part of a more overarching one that I call God. I believe that our consciousness is and can be influenced by this overarching consciousness to produce ideas about the reality we inhabit. When I read the recordings of intellects centuries and millennia removed from mine, I tend to see all of it as science fiction (generically) because they did not have access to the knowledge and perspective we possess today.
I have used the stardust reality by suggesting that the "dust of the earth" referred to is actually evolved hominids in whom our unique non-material consciousness was seeded. When I detect recurring conceptual themes evolving from more primitive versions, I attribute the themes to influence from the higher consciousness (i.e. inspiration). That is why I give them meaning in discerning explanations for what is still inexplicable despite the closing "gaps for God" so many atheists rejoice in.
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Wearing my sci-fi hat, IF I were to grant (as a sci-fi premise) that there really is a Creator/God, and Jesus really is a spirit-of-God delivery system, then I'd say that your essay is about as close to on-target as any reasonably simple narrative ever gets. If I were taking this route, I would tend to get a bit Jungian and talk about archetypes of consciousness - something sorta like the qualitative "scaffolding" or fundamental structuring principles of conscious experience. From this perspective, the emergence of a more or less "Jesus-like" dynamics could turn out to be virtually inevitable. And, again from this perspective, the collection of symbolisms surrounding Christianity and other religions could turn out be pathways to incredibly deep spiritual revelations. Various Jungian authors have actually pursued this line of thinking, and their insights are sometimes stunning in a poetic sort of way - evoking feelings of spiritual insight that might be difficult to achieve by pursuing more purely scientific, logical, or literal ways of thinking.
Thanks, but it needn't be considered a Creator in the traditional sense. Consider our entire reality as one all-encompassing consciousness-producing organism of which we are an integral and reproductive part. We do not have the perspective necessary to fully understand the roles played and intricate interactions that all the phenomena we investigate have to contribute to this organism that is our reality because we are INSIDE it. I agree about the Jungian "scaffolding" and the "Jesus-like" dynamic is consistent with my interpretation.
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In any case, when all is said an done, I think Christians miss the boat if they place their faith in the Bible as being history, or a book of literal lessons sent by God. If there has to be religious faith of some sort, this faith ought to be based not on anything produced by human hands (even "inspired" human hands), but rather, on the deeply personal/subjective living sense of communion and Unity with the Holistic (even, perhaps, "Holy") Natural World.
I agree with your naturalistic description of living in a sense of communion and Unity with the Holistic (even, perhaps, "Holy") God who is our reality.
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In a game of "hot/cold" I think we get "hotter" as we deepen our understanding of, and spiritual appreciation for, the profoundly mysterious and mind-boggling intricacy of the Natural world, and "colder" whenever we are drawn toward more "supernatural" explanations.
Agree wholeheartedly!
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Basically, I don't think there is a creator of nature that is "beyond" nature, but rather, Nature is Creativity - it is "its own creator" so to speak, and as conscious beings we partake of that intrinsically Subjective Creative Impulse. Paraphrasing a famous observation: magic is just natural science that we haven't discovered yet.
Correct. I just prefer to call it God and deem consciousness as derivative from it and reproductive of it.
Mystic, in your first post, there are many definitions of "magical thinking"
One is a term as you know that we use in psychology. It is a mindset that if a certain activity or thought is performed, then anxiety will be reduced, and bad things may not happen. It is common with patients who have obsessive/compulsive disorders. Also many with depression and severe anxiety.
I had a client that I went to see for an evaluation. I asked her what she does alone in her room all day, she showed me a stack of notebooks, all which had mathematical equations. She spent the day adding numbers together, because it was later determined that she believed that by reaching a certain number at the end of the day, then all would be well for the night...no sickness no death no violence....etc
It was a magical thinking that led her to believe that her dozens of notebooks of equations protected her from some unseen force.
Likewise, there is a belief in Christianity that a cross, a communion wafer, a cup of wine, a service, a ritual protects someone for a week or so. When I was a kid I wanted to go see a horror movie with some friends. My dad took me aside and told me in all seriousness, in regards to monsters "There is no such thing" I thought it odd, because he worshiped a god which in my opinion was no such thing either, and I knew it was a fictional account, something he himself to this day probably has trouble reconciling.... That being said, there are many people still who believe that Jesus evoked some magical miracle and fed thousands, healed the sick, raised the dead.etc
More evidence exists that these magical stories were just embellishments added later to make Jesus seem like a god, a demigod to be exact (a god father, earthly mother) The earliest writings do not suggest miracles, lending evidence to the magical abilities of Jesus being added in later accounts.
Also, the recent "miracles" performed by many modern day miracle workers (Benny Hinn, Sathya sai Baba, Peter Popoff ) have been proven to be hoaxes. Even the workings of Penn and Teller, David Copperfield and the like are just Illusions....set up for entertainment, but in the hands of the con artist, set up for gain. If magic is real, and talking to a number of witches , wiccans, druids etc the belief that it is real certainly exists , but the reality of magic is that there in little to no reproducible evidence of it....if it is real, then we should have proof of it now.
Where is that proof?
"if it is real, then we should have proof of it now." This is certainly true for formulaic magic, i.e. perform certain tasks and such a result will happen. Unfortunately, it is only "proven" when the result occurs and discounted when it does not (did something wrong, or one of the elements was missing or not strong enough (usually faith).
From where I stand the effects of electricity and magnetism are magic because I don't understand how it works, but the results of certain materiels and actions are predictable if not absolutely certain, so it is not called "magic."
"if it is real, then we should have proof of it now." This is certainly true for formulaic magic, i.e. perform certain tasks and such a result will happen. Unfortunately, it is only "proven" when the result occurs and discounted when it does not (did something wrong, or one of the elements was missing or not strong enough (usually faith).
From where I stand the effects of electricity and magnetism are magic because I don't understand how it works, but the results of certain materiels and actions are predictable if not absolutely certain, so it is not called "magic."
YES !
Please remember too that in Jesus' time, magnetism was even less understood. Astrology, not astronomy governed the lives of many. Many people wanted a "formula" that would help them to gain some control over their lives. Astrology offered that.
Little was known about science, if science as a form even existed. Virtually nothing was known about psychology, by today's standards. Medicine was a little better, but not by much, as evidenced by the beliefs that illness was caused by demons, or by divine punishment. Even in the middle ages, people would mistakenly believe in illness being caused by imbalances of blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm. (Interesting, the middle ages were also governed strongly by the church, at least in Europe)
Anything that was not understood was described at the time as magic, and superstition reigned supreme. So it was easy to spread stories of miracles just as easily as it was to spread stories of fantastic beasts, like Giant and Unicorns ! ( Isaiah 34:7)
Correct. I just prefer to call it God and deem consciousness as derivative from it and reproductive of it.
Mystic, there is a difference between what G-d (who is not an "it") has done and set into motion, and who He is. The creation is not the creator, nor does "consciousness" derive from it, nor does it produce it, because it is not the Source.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Word for creature there, also means "creation". Peace
I also remember attending a magic show at Six Flags when I was a kid. This was not the usual type of show , making doves come out of handkerchiefs or rabbits out of a hat. This was a big stage show, with large illusions, a monster turning instantly into the magician, and the magician appearing in the audience at the end, just like David Copperfield. I was entertained.
My mom, not so much , saying she did not like the show. ...."Those were all just illusions." She said "The woman did not really get sawed in half..."
Well, no kidding, bimbo.....(Exodus 20:12, unless they are abusive ignorant philistines) No one got sawed in half. But it looked good, it was ENTERTAINING and the rest of us enjoyed it. Even if it was just an illusion, just a fantasy just a myth.
That is what Jesus is...a great myth, a great fantasy, a collective mythology, an example off life imitating art...... There is no way to perform the magical illusions in reality, but there is a way to make them Look real from a certain point of view. The only problem would be if someone went home afterwards, some kid or some less educated adult (like the ones at the rasslin matches last month) who might think it is real and try to saw the cat in half.
Or someone who walks into church Sunday and accepts all of it as literal truth.
Like the magic show, attending church requires the suspension of belief for a few minutes. Some adults are not capable of that.
I also remember attending a magic show at Six Flags when I was a kid. This was not the usual type of show , making doves come out of handkerchiefs or rabbits out of a hat. This was a big stage show, with large illusions, a monster turning instantly into the magician, and the magician appearing in the audience at the end, just like David Copperfield. I was entertained.
My mom, not so much , saying she did not like the show. ...."Those were all just illusions." She said "The woman did not really get sawed in half..."
Well, no kidding, bimbo.....(Exodus 20:12, unless they are abusive ignorant philistines) No one got sawed in half. But it looked good, it was ENTERTAINING and the rest of us enjoyed it. Even if it was just an illusion, just a fantasy just a myth.
That is what Jesus is...a great myth, a great fantasy, a collective mythology, an example off life imitating art...... There is no way to perform the magical illusions in reality, but there is a way to make them Look real from a certain point of view. The only problem would be if someone went home afterwards, some kid or some less educated adult (like the ones at the rasslin matches last month) who might think it is real and try to saw the cat in half.
Or someone who walks into church Sunday and accepts all of it as literal truth.
Like the magic show, attending church requires the suspension of belief for a few minutes. Some adults are not capable of that.
You call your mother a bimbo??? The first commandment with promise is that we honor our father and mother (first natural, then spiritual), the promise being that of long prosperous life. Peace
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