Judaism or Christinity... (disciple, God, Christians, beliefs)
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I see the gospels as a Transitional form of christian evolution. (write that one on your wall ) from Jesus as the man -messiah of Paul the Jew to Jesus the man -god of the Greek Christians, and from Paul who only denounced Jews who did not accept his views to the Christian gospel -writers who, as Greeks - already hated the Jews. The anti Semitism was already there. They just needed spread it to Jews as a whole.
Notably, Matthew expresses the feeling that ALL Jewry were to blame for Jesus being killed. Matthew, feeling that it could look as though the Sanhedrin or ever 'the crowd' who called for his execution were still not Jews as a whole, so he writes in a passage (not found in the other gospels) having them wish on themselves and all future generations, the guilt for Jesus' death.
This passage tells us a lot about Matthew himself, the Gospel - writers as a bunch and the Christianity of that time. And none of it is very nice.
And I think you have the righteousness of the pharisees.
I would be proud to be called a Pharisee, Paul was a Pharisee just as all the Jewish believers were Pharisees, you think Paul stopped being a Pharisee?
In other words, no thought process, just a bible reference.
Have you read Romans?
Have you seen the argument that Paul makes through the whole book?
Do you recognize that there is an actual argument? That it's more than just a collection of random thoughts? That chapter 2 builds on 1? That 3 builds on 2?
What have I said to suggest that I believe in the slightest that I'm in any way qualified as "perfect"? I've never said anything close to that.
My righteousness is ENTIRELY based on what Jesus did. NOTHING more.
That's what I thought. YOU don't have to be perfect - your Religion will save you. But then, of the others were perfec (say) but didn't beleive your religion, would that get them into heaven?
No bear -trap . Is it the perfection that is needed or the religion?
Have you seen the argument that Paul makes through the whole book?
Do you recognize that there is an actual argument? That it's more than just a collection of random thoughts? That chapter 2 builds on 1? That 3 builds on 2?
I asked you what thought process led you to believe that God is incapable of loving people who are imperfect. You mentioned some chapters in a book in the bible. That's not your thought process. Can you at least explain it for yourself?
I asked you what thought process led you to believe that God is incapable of loving people who are imperfect. You mentioned some chapters in a book in the bible. That's not your thought process. Can you at least explain it for yourself?
The book of Romans lays it out in a logical, reasonable order. I can tell by your response the answer to "Have you read it?" is no. I suspected as much.
My thought process is that which Paul uses in Romans. I'd suggest if you want to understand it, read it. It'll take you less than an hour to read it beginning to end. I can't do justice to it to try to give you a recap in a paragraph and I doubt you'd read it all anyway.
That's what I thought. YOU don't have to be perfect - your Religion will save you. But then, of the others were perfec (say) but didn't beleive your religion, would that get them into heaven?
No bear -trap . Is it the perfection that is needed or the religion?
Jesus saved me. Not my religion.
And yes--perfection is needed to be accepted and loved by God. But none of us can be, so that's why Jesus died. He lived a perfect life and died to pay for OUR sin.
I have evidence to support every bit of it. If it is only circumstantial, I say so as I say in my suspicion that Paul's opponents were the Apostles.
Of course you think I'm reading a lot into it that isn't there. Probably most people do. Even Bible experts seem to take the 'Jesus saids' as reliable, when study ought to show they surely are not.
There needs to be a lot more 'reading into it'. And what evidence have you to show that my conclusions are incorrect, other than the view I take myself - the Bible is there and should be taken as true, at least some of it - until proven false. Which is why I take seriously the burden of proof on those who debunk the Bible.
I think it's clear there is, in some cases moreso than others.
In the end, intent might not matter as much as the fact that the hearers took the "Jews are bad, the gospels say so" idea and ran with it to the point of horror.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
I think it's clear there is, in some cases moreso than others.
In the end, intent might not matter as much as the fact that the hearers took the "Jews are bad, the gospels say so" idea and ran with it to the point of horror.
But the evidence is rather that this sentiment might apply to Paul, who was only critical of the Jewish Law, that Jews did not live up to it (evidently what bothered him was that he didn't) and in the end those Jews who opposed his work (which I am inclined to think were Jesus own followers - Observing Jews themselves, though that is just my view) and it was the Gospel -writers themselves who heard that as 'The Jews are bad (because as Greeks, they already believed that) and they made sure that's what the gospels said.
Sure, the disciples were ok - Jews that has become converts were fine, just as Christians who become Muslims can end up honoured as Spokespersons and Imams. But the rest are dogs deserving of death.
That's how Christianity regarded the Jews, and the history of Europe is solid with anti -semitism from the medieval massacres to the pogroms in Russia.
100 years ago (and the Origin of Species had just been published is no more than a coincidence ) their position began to improve a bit. In the last fifty years, a lot.
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) from Jesus as the man -messiah of Paul the Jew to Jesus the man -god of the Greek Christians, and from Paul who only denounced Jews who did not accept his views to the Christian gospel -writers who, as Greeks - already hated the Jews. The anti Semitism was already there. They just needed spread it to Jews as a whole.
. Is it the perfection that is needed or the religion?
) their position began to improve a bit. In the last fifty years, a lot.
