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“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.”
― George Bernard Shaw,
You know, I foresaw that objection and I very obviously said people should NOT believe something because it makes them feel good.
People should not allow themselves to be indoctrinated in either direction. They should use reason, education, and self-awareness to figure it out.
Having been an earth science teacher, and having taught evolution...it was always taught as a theory.
But, if you really think kids today are indoctrinated with Darwin's theory...which btw has evolved so much that it shouldn't be called that...go up to the next everyday teenager and ask them to give you a 3 minute description of the theory. Just like most of those ranting against it can't explain it (just deplorable), neither can most of those who you think are indoctrinated.
There is absolutely no reason for you to assume I was complaining about evolution. Absolutely none. I have NEVER EVER said that I don't believe in evolution.
Only in parts of the world. And are the marginal benefits from religion, or is it something else that the religious benefit from.
According to the video I posted, the benefits are not marginal. He also said it is not just because of socializing at church, etc. You could at least watch it before commenting.
I don't think I know any atheists outside of City-data. So I can't share my experience with atheists.
But I do know and interact with many religious people. Some have a more positive attitude than I do and live a healthier life than I do. They have many more relationships and a wider social network, for example. However, there are many religious people who suffer more than I do, especially in their relationships, which can then impact their physical health.
So what exactly could cause religious people to live a healthier life as you say? Well, one skill that is helpful to have is conflict resolution. I believe people who possess good skills in this area have healthier lives, because it allows them to obtain what they need while maintaining relationships with others.
A particular strategy to getting past conflict is to take a step back and find common ground. Perhaps falling back to something familiar such as religion can assist with this and can help get past the conflict. So it is not religion that is the source of health but the fact that it can be used as a common starting point in order to resolve a conflict.
A non-religious person, such as myself, cannot fall back on religion, but since it is just a strategy in conflict resolution, I am not doomed to an unhealthy life. I can just use a different starting point and I have done this many times with my religious friends.
I was not posting my own opinion, just the opinion of the atheist who made the video.
My guess is that atheists do not feel deeply connected to the universe. They see themselves as separate and ultimately isolated. They don't have a sense of anything caring about them, except the people they know. And people are not always completely reliable.
I do NOT advocate religion as a way to feel good. My point is that atheists think they are helping the world by crusading against religion, but they are not.
The spiritual aspect of religion is not the cause of conflict and wars. That is caused by the political and dogmatic aspects of organized religions.
I never said I was a Christian. There is more than one religion in the world.
Don't blame Phet. You haven't been very forthcoming about what you believe, and have run out of Lithium batteries for our crystal balls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
It really has to happen eventually, as more evidence is found against simple-minded Darwinism.
The alternative evolution theories are compatible with spiritual beliefs. It's about time the illusion ends that science and spirituality are in conflict.
Oh, so there is evidence and alternative theories after all How about posting some, for one.
Let me hazard a guess. The 'evidence' and 'alternative theories' are you do not accept something about evolution -theory that isn't too clear. It looks like a denial that natural selection through genetic mutation is the mechanism that drived evolution, which you accept, though apparently deny too, because you reckon that 'Micro' can never become 'Macro'. Which implies a denial of speciation in prehistory, which is what acceptance of evolution demands.
So apart from you having no evidence of alternative, it isn't even clear what the heck you actually believe. That you are endorsing Cardinals and his 'teach the alternative' anti -science (which, make no mistake, is what it is) suggest that are are an evolution -denying creationists, despite you efforts to deny it. You can't help your underslip showing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
You know, I foresaw that objection and I very obviously said people should NOT believe something because it makes them feel good.
People should not allow themselves to be indoctrinated in either direction. They should use reason, education, and self-awareness to figure it out.
You did indeed.
"NO, we should not become religious to improve our health!! That would be impossible. Pretending to believe would have no effect.
NO, we should not advocate religion because it's good for you. We should NOT believe in lies just to makes ourselves feel better.
ON THE OTHER HAND -- if we have religious beliefs because of reason and evidence and experience, then we should be glad that it's good for us."
In fact that answers my own post as well. Though I might cite the de Botton initiative that we should use what religion can do that is useful for us but discard the religious trappings. But we should learn the tightrope act of using Religion while not letting it use us. we can do it with Yoga and metitation, after all.
And I fully agree with you that people "should use reason, education, and self-awareness to figure it out". Unfortunately, so far, you have exhibited none of those traits, but only denial of evidence, denial of reason and denial of everything but your own Rightness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
According to the video I posted, the benefits are not marginal. He also said it is not just because of socializing at church, etc. You could at least watch it before commenting.
They are marginal, mainly because they can be replaced by non -religious alternatives, and you cannot ignore the socially harmful side effects.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-27-2018 at 10:49 AM..
We're probably willing to make a deal with you -- you christians stop indoctrinating young people, and we will, too...except, of course, we don't to begin with. So please don't talk about ignorance when you cannot see your own.
Most young people are taught their parent’s religion. That’s none of your business.
Robert Sapolsky, an atheist, explains the mental and physical health benefits of religion.
Of course, he thinks religion is all wishful thinking nonsense. But he says 95% of humans have religious beliefs, and they are on average better off because of it.
NO, we should not become religious to improve our health!! That would be impossible. Pretending to believe would have no effect.
NO, we should not advocate religion because it's good for you. We should NOT believe in lies just to makes ourselves feel better.
ON THE OTHER HAND -- if we have religious beliefs because of reason and evidence and experience, then we should be glad that it's good for us.
AND, it would be nice if atheists stop their crusading and indoctrination of young people. You are not doing anyone any good. You are not ridding the world of something stupid and destructive. You are imposing your personal beliefs on people who are too ignorant to see your logical errors. And you are causing them harm.
I think he is right. Back in the early days on the Forum discussing religious belief as an evolved faculty (with Matrix and Mystic) it seemed to settle into a conclusion that the religious instinct only existed for a survival advantage (indeed i have since come to think that it it did not have a survival advantage, we wouldn't have the Instinct). Of course, the corollary that a survival advantage is no more likely to be true or indeed desirable than a fear of the dark or fear of death did not do down so well with them.
So while I agree with that atheist, it does not in fact make a case for the value of Godfaith, let alone religion, but an additional argument why we need to replace instinctive thinking with reason, and evidence. And to recognise that evolution made us (a really weak species) adapted to survive, despite everything, and thanks evolution - that was fine. But we have fun into a brick wall of our kneejerk instincts, and if we are to survive now, we have to do better than evolution.
And the first thing that has to go, is religion and with it it religious politics, conflict, disregard for the planet we have to live on, and antisocial overbreeding. If we can do away with religion, we could have a good chance. In spite of what prof. Hawking said.
It really has to happen eventually, as more evidence is found against simple-minded Darwinism.
Try reading a science paper that was written AFTER Darwin. You have over a century of work to catch up on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
The alternative evolution theories are compatible with spiritual beliefs. It's about time the illusion ends that science and spirituality are in conflict.
So why do the alternatives have to lie all the time?
There is absolutely no reason for you to assume I was complaining about evolution. Absolutely none. I have NEVER EVER said that I don't believe in evolution.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-27-2018 at 11:12 AM..
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How about posting some, for one.
You can take that as "No". Phet. So much for the peace talks. Saddle up the war -elephants. 