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"This reply was written by John." (Do you accept that at face value? If not... good, you shouldn't!)
It is doubtful that the same person (whomever he was) wrote all five works, or that the Apostle John wrote any of them. Slapping someone's name on them was an early version of Appeal to Authority.
But would you really trust this person who was a criminal?
Was he a criminal or a political prisoner?
There's quite a difference. I'd explain the difference, but it would just weird you out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
i have always found Revelation a puzzle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424
Revelation is simply too abstract and obtuse for general usefulness.
Nothing difficult about it if you study religious prophecies, especially biblical prophecies.
Sea symbolizes chaos and conflict. It's an allusion to various cosmogonies, including the Hebrew cosmogony in which Earth is created from the chaos of the primordial waters. The discriminating reader understands when the sea is to be taken in a literal sense.
Earth represents the inhabited civilized world, which does not include areas dominated by barbarians or aboriginal peoples. Sorry, but that does not include Australia, the Americas, Asia or sub-Saharan Africa. In Revelation, the Earth is basically the entire Roman Empire at its greatest extent and adjacent territories over which Rome exercised political or economic hegemony.
When not in the context of the inhabited civilized world (which is quite clear), Earth symbolizes stability (in contrast to the sea of chaos). There is one other unique phrase, "those that dwell in the earth" which refers to those who are eternally damned.
Air signifies thoughts, beliefs, ideas and paradigms.
Heaven symbolizes spirituality, except in the context of "those who dwell in heaven" which represents those who are saved.
Fire, brimstone and hailstones are destructive forces that are not weather related. Depending on the context, the destruction could be physical or tangible (that is something that you can see like an army being annihilated) or non-physical, that is to say intangible (like thoughts, belief systems and ideas being destroyed).
Fire represents purification or punishment. Generally, fire (and anything else) that falls, comes down or is thrown down should be interpreted as a punishment, something bad, or something negative. All other forms of fire represents goodness (through purification).
Earthquakes are revolutions, but are context dependent. A revolution could be physical (civil war) or the transformation of thoughts, beliefs and ideas (a social revolution).
Sun and Moon denote earth-based authorities, whether secular, religious, political or social, and they can be good or bad, as viewed in the context of the other symbols. Generally, the Sun is secular or political powers, while the Moon has an affinity to religious or social leaders.
Stars are symbols of spiritual powers. Stars in the heavens are good, while stars that are falling or thrown to earth represent (contextually) evil, idolatry, paganism or pagan gods.
Islands and Isles stand for nations. Specifically, in the context of Revelation, a nation is a State, nation-State or ethnic group.
Beasts are empires while kings may represent governments, kingdoms or empires.
Heads and Mountains represent forms of government and political sub-divisions. Often, mountains may refer to subordinate political entities such as provinces or principalities subordinate to a larger political entity, like an empire (e.g. Judea a province of Rome).
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
So Jesus is not God or God’s Son who died for everyone’s sins?
Jesus is neither, and he didn't die for anyone's sins, since everyone was already cleansed of their sins:
Leviticus 16:29 “This is to be a perpetual statute for you. In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you must humble yourselves and do no work of any kind, both the native citizen and the foreigner who resides in your midst, 16:30 for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before the Lord.
The High Priest takes care of all sins, so Jesus was totally unnecessary, and his death was that much more totally unnecessary.
I think he was definitely part of the early Christian movement. He might have even been a close disciple. In Revelation chapter 13 he is describing the "Jesus" of the Roman religion as a "Beast". He equates the false Roman Christianity as a beast which appeared to survive a mortal wound, which I assume was the crucifixion.
But he's really equating orthodox Christianity with the worship of Caesar, in a clever way.
It sounds pretty profound, but in today's terms it was really just political differences.
Damn That's good. Where's me Bible?
Yes. a Beast, the servant of the "Dragon" (surely Rome) could work well as Roman Christianity (if not Pauline Christianity) which might make Revelation more a work of Jewish -messianic Christianity. I have never paid much attention to Revelation as it was too metaphorical to make much sense of. But I was reminded of it rather in glancing over the War -scroll and some of the more warlike texts of the Qumran cache, so it makes me wonder.
P.s Bearing in mind that the Jewish war must have seemed like the Last Days to the zealots, and also that the symbolism is supposed to represent Nero (though others say Domitian), could the beast, the servant of dragon with two Horns (13, 10) be Vespasian and Titus , heading the Roman army putting down the revolt. And could the previous beast with ten horns and seven heads and diadems refer to Alexander's empire with his ten generals (was it ten?) though only Three got to be kings. I'm thinking of Revelation taking some inspiration from Daniel, which it is very similar to, but relating to the Jewish war as Daniel is related to the Maccabean war.
Doesn't obviously fit, but I'll keep it in mind. it does read very much like Christianity and thus Roman Christianity, but then so does James. But I've wondered (from the content) whether the letter of James really could be from the leader of the Jewish Christians, taking issue with Paul's idea of faith rather than works (though the Law). Could Revelation really be a Nazorene "Daniel" written during the Jewish war?
Stand by for another Pet Theory.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-09-2018 at 06:13 AM..
Mhh I don't know. I had a quick google for some Great Minds on the subject and one bod related Ch 11 to the destruction of the Temple. But that's followed apparently by Satan's revolt in heaven and being cast down. So I'm blowed if I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Was he a criminal or a political prisoner?
There's quite a difference. I'd explain the difference, but it would just weird you out.
Nothing difficult about it if you study religious prophecies, especially biblical prophecies.
Sea symbolizes chaos and conflict. It's an allusion to various cosmogonies, including the Hebrew cosmogony in which Earth is created from the chaos of the primordial waters. The discriminating reader understands when the sea is to be taken in a literal sense.
Earth represents the inhabited civilized world, which does not include areas dominated by barbarians or aboriginal peoples. Sorry, but that does not include Australia, the Americas, Asia or sub-Saharan Africa. In Revelation, the Earth is basically the entire Roman Empire at its greatest extent and adjacent territories over which Rome exercised political or economic hegemony.
When not in the context of the inhabited civilized world (which is quite clear), Earth symbolizes stability (in contrast to the sea of chaos). There is one other unique phrase, "those that dwell in the earth" which refers to those who are eternally damned.
Air signifies thoughts, beliefs, ideas and paradigms.
Heaven symbolizes spirituality, except in the context of "those who dwell in heaven" which represents those who are saved.
Fire, brimstone and hailstones are destructive forces that are not weather related. Depending on the context, the destruction could be physical or tangible (that is something that you can see like an army being annihilated) or non-physical, that is to say intangible (like thoughts, belief systems and ideas being destroyed).
Fire represents purification or punishment. Generally, fire (and anything else) that falls, comes down or is thrown down should be interpreted as a punishment, something bad, or something negative. All other forms of fire represents goodness (through purification).
Earthquakes are revolutions, but are context dependent. A revolution could be physical (civil war) or the transformation of thoughts, beliefs and ideas (a social revolution).
Sun and Moon denote earth-based authorities, whether secular, religious, political or social, and they can be good or bad, as viewed in the context of the other symbols. Generally, the Sun is secular or political powers, while the Moon has an affinity to religious or social leaders.
Stars are symbols of spiritual powers. Stars in the heavens are good, while stars that are falling or thrown to earth represent (contextually) evil, idolatry, paganism or pagan gods.
Islands and Isles stand for nations. Specifically, in the context of Revelation, a nation is a State, nation-State or ethnic group.
Beasts are empires while kings may represent governments, kingdoms or empires.
Heads and Mountains represent forms of government and political sub-divisions. Often, mountains may refer to subordinate political entities such as provinces or principalities subordinate to a larger political entity, like an empire (e.g. Judea a province of Rome).
Jesus is neither, and he didn't die for anyone's sins, since everyone was already cleansed of their sins:
Leviticus 16:29 “This is to be a perpetual statute for you. In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you must humble yourselves and do no work of any kind, both the native citizen and the foreigner who resides in your midst, 16:30 for on this day atonement is to be made for you to cleanse you from all your sins; you must be clean before the Lord.
The High Priest takes care of all sins, so Jesus was totally unnecessary, and his death was that much more totally unnecessary.
Some people just don't understand the bible.
I'll keep those metaphors in mind while trying to work it out. I think it is pretty clear that the beasts and horns represent empires and rulers.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-09-2018 at 07:07 AM..
Except that he was well-known to first century Christians, he had written 3 other letters and a Gospel, and was beloved by many in the church. Good thing you don't get to decide it.
I knew that there were an early church Father who claimed to know someone who had known John the apostle in Ephesus. But that doesn't authenticate him as the author of any of these texts that have his name appended. I don't doubt that Peter really existed, but II Peter is considered to be demonstrably not by him, and I don't believe the Gospel of Peter is, either or you'd be referencing it all the time.
The disciple that "Jesus loved" was a disciple, rather than an apostle, which is a rather different thing. We know that Jesus loved Lazarus and his sisters (John) and he was next to the 'disciple that Jesus loved' at the last supper. After the arrest, the disciples (presumably including John) scattered but Peter and the other one followed Jesus to the High Priest's house and the Other being known there, got Peter in. How could that be John? Finally we see Jesus giving his mother to the disciple that Jesus loved, but there is no indication that any disciples were there - not even Peter, who'd been scared off or, was in misery. It has to be Lazarus.
I won't even go into the conclusion ( If you take the Gospels as reliable - which i don't) as to which of Jesus' followers (not an Apostle) Lazarus had to be. But John doesn't fit the bill. Not for the reasons that you give.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-09-2018 at 07:01 AM..
Why is it doubtful? Simply declaring it to be so isn't adequate proof.
First, time is not on your side (or at least it wasn't on John's side). Unless he lived to 100, at a time when most died at 45, it would be a real stretch for him to have written the Gospel or Revelation.
There is a ream of actual scholarship on the authorship of these works, and Google is your friend.
Try "authorship of Johannine works" or "who wrote the gospels?" (hint: stay away from apologetics literature, or anything written by guys named "John").
The first thing you'll see is "The authorship of the Johannine works—the Gospel of John, Epistles of John, and the Book of Revelation—has been debated by scholars since at least the 2nd century AD." In other words, they weren't even sure way back then, and it hasn't gotten clearer in the shrouded mists of time. Though we have gotten somewhat better about critical analysis of claims. Towit, you will also read things like "TRADITIONALLY these works were ascribed to John the Apostle".... tradition being a notoriously bad way to learn the facts about anything.
Hmmmm.... maybe there really *ARE* such things as miracles? This may be the first time I can agree with Ozzy!
I'm never surprised when I agree with Ozzy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeelaMonster
First, time is not on your side (or at least it wasn't on John's side). Unless he lived to 100, at a time when most died at 45, it would be a real stretch for him to have written the Gospel or Revelation.
There is a ream of actual scholarship on the authorship of these works, and Google is your friend.
Try "authorship of Johannine works" or "who wrote the gospels?" (hint: stay away from apologetics literature, or anything written by guys named "John").
The first thing you'll see is "The authorship of the Johannine works—the Gospel of John, Epistles of John, and the Book of Revelation—has been debated by scholars since at least the 2nd century AD." In other words, they weren't even sure way back then, and it hasn't gotten clearer in the shrouded mists of time. Though we have gotten somewhat better about critical analysis of claims. Towit, you will also read things like "TRADITIONALLY these works were ascribed to John the Apostle".... tradition being a notoriously bad way to learn the facts about anything.
The book of Revelation was written by a man named John who was an exiled prisoner. He had nothing to do but write down his visions. But there was a lot of anger mixed with love.
I find Revelation to be written in very-vivid word pictures for us.
John wrote his gospel according to John ' after ' he wrote Revelation.
Basically the word revelation means a revealing, In the case of Revelation it is a revealing of the future for us.
Please notice the happy ending or happy climax as found pictured at Revelation 22:2.
There we find the return of the Genesis "tree of life" on Earth for the ' healing ' of earth's nations.
In other words, when Jesus begins his 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth, then earth's nations will be 'healed'.
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and bring heavenly benefits to Earth for the 'healing' of earth's nations.
This will be in fulfillment to God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed - Gen. 12:3.
And ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Gen 18:18; 22:18 - blessed with the benefits of ' healing ' for us.
Healing as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.
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That's good. Where's me Bible?
I don't know. I had a quick google for some Great Minds on the subject and one bod related Ch 11 to the destruction of the Temple. But that's followed apparently by Satan's revolt in heaven and being cast down. So I'm blowed if I know.
If you take the Gospels as reliable - which i don't) as to which of Jesus' followers (not an Apostle) Lazarus had to be. But John doesn't fit the bill. Not for the reasons that you give.
