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If I use the bus system in a strange city I trust that the route maps are accurate and that the drivers know their routes. I truth that I will get to my destination however I am not 100% sure because I might of misread the maps, or for other reasons the bus does not take me to where I want to go. The map may even be outdated or for the wrong day of the week. But I have ridden busses in many cities in several countries therefore I have a reasonable expectation that the next city I visit will have a system that works in a similar fashion.
It is neither faith nor 100% certainity, but experience. I also trust that my wife's car will start everyday now that it has a new battery. However I also know from experience that it might not start under a certain temperature because the switch on the clutch pedal might have frozen and I'll need to use the hairdryer to thaw it out. None of this is Fath based but based on probabilities and experience. If I bought a used car from a stranger and he told me that it worked perfectly all the time and would be good for years, if I accepted him at his word and did not have a mechanic check it out, that would be faith based.
So if a “CLAIM” that “God exists” is NOT made then there is no more Atheism left in the world?
And instead of making a “CLAIM” if all believers in the world say, “I have faith in God” then no claim is made again - and hence that should lead to the the death of Atheism?
I'm confused... Why would anyone put faith in something they don't think exists?
You seem to be hung up on the word "CLAIM," establishing a high bar by giving it a special meaning (that can then be sidestepped)... and it's not helping your logical arguments. A claim is merely a proposition, a premise, a statement in support of an idea, a thought that something is. You can even keep that thought to yourself if you want.... I would still consider it to be a claim, if you think it to be true. The "CLAIM" does not have to be capitalized, or rolled out with trumpet blasts and flashing neon signs, or branded on your flank, or tattooed on your forehead, or painted on your house, or signed on a formal document. Avoiding use of the C word doesn't mean you have not made a claim.
If you think something exists, enough to put faith in it, you have de facto made a claim. Presumably all the believers in the world would not be putting faith in something they don't think exists?
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 12-15-2018 at 01:01 PM..
Perhaps you can explain to me how the beliefs and opinions of fallible humans ABOUT God would have ANY impact on the existential and essentially empirical question of God's existence?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Do try and keep up. I am talking about gods, plural. Let me try again.
If experiences are proof of your god, then experiences about other gods must mean they also exist. Which means there must be more than one god. So the claim that there can only be one god must therefore logically be false.
You can refute this by pointing out how experiences are not credible evidence if you wish.
Why on earth would you be talking about plural gods? It seems you have trouble separating the empirical existential question from the descriptive ones. The existence of God is separate from ANY of its descriptive attributes assigned by fallible humans. Your plural gods are figments of fallible human perception and imagination. There is only one reality and one God establishing it.
Why on earth would you be talking about plural gods? It seems you have trouble separating the empirical existential question from the descriptive ones. The existence of God is separate from ANY of its descriptive attributes assigned by fallible humans. Your plural gods are figments of fallible human perception and imagination. There is only one reality and one God establishing it.
But not every person believes in God. Some people believe in Zeus. If your feelings about God prove that God is real, then it follows that other people's feelings about Zeus prove Zeus is real. The same is true of every other deity which any person has ever believed in.
Or, your feelings about God do not prove God is real.
Perhaps you can explain to me how the beliefs and opinions of fallible humans ABOUT God would have ANY impact on the existential and essentially empirical question of God's existence?????
You mean "God(s)" no? Nothing stopping an eternal God from allowing another (others), and not talking to humans about it, but some humans getting almost lucky with their guesses might also happen.
So if a “CLAIM” that “God exists” is NOT made then there is no more Atheism left in the world?
And instead of making a “CLAIM” if all believers in the world say, “I have faith in God” then no claim is made again - and hence that should lead to the the death of Atheism?
There would be as much "Atheism" left as "non-golfing" or "anti-golfing" ideas or "non-stamp-collecting" ideas etc if there was no golfing or stamp-collecting.
If one says "There is an FSM for sure!" or "There is no FSM for sure!" then two claims are made which are basically unfalsifiable, given that the FSM is mysterious, so it seems like it mysteriously hides from humans.
So if a “CLAIM” that “God exists” is NOT made then there is no more Atheism left in the world?
And instead of making a “CLAIM” if all believers in the world say, “I have faith in God” then no claim is made again - and hence that should lead to the the death of Atheism?
no, because we will just answer "we have faith that your god doesn't exist." or in my case, saying that "you just are misunderstanding the universe around you."
But not every person believes in God. Some people believe in Zeus. If your feelings about God prove that God is real, then it follows that other people's feelings about Zeus prove Zeus is real. The same is true of every other deity which any person has ever believed in.
Or, your feelings about God do not prove God is real.
One of those statements is true; take your pick.
Nonsense. It is just as silly as positing multiple universes despite the fact that we only have evidence of ONE. We only have evidence of one reality so we only can posit ONE God as the basis for it. What names fallible humans ascribe to God are irrelevant to God's existence.
Nonsense. It is just as silly as positing multiple universes despite the fact that we only have evidence of ONE. We only have evidence of one reality so we only can posit ONE God as the basis for it. What names fallible humans ascribe to God are irrelevant to God's existence.
well, we would have to define this god of yours. the reality of the situation is that we have evil, so we would kind of have to address the TRUE traits of this grape god of yours.
Nonsense. It is just as silly as positing multiple universes despite the fact that we only have evidence of ONE. We only have evidence of one reality so we only can posit ONE God as the basis for it. What names fallible humans ascribe to God are irrelevant to God's existence.
Who says? Plenty of religious beliefs involve multiple gods and one universe.
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