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I think this is the aspect of religion which confuses most atheists and skeptics. They just don't see the value in pretending. But isn't that what we do with children all the time? Reality is too much for children to handle, so we have to "embellish" the truth. And when the truth contains a large element of mystery, then there is naturally going to be a large grey area of unknown where people grow up in a religion and are never entirely sure of what is pretend and what is not. They eventually realize that Santa Claus is imaginary, but his spirit is not. And in reality, we don't know if there is not some real unseen spirit that is a part of the charity which makes itself known during Yuletide.
In the documentary film "Jesus Camp" it portrays children at a Christian camp engaged in charismatic worship. You can tell that some of the children are probably pretending. But there is something in that kind of play. The conclusion is that the playtime is a part of their development.
And perhaps that "play" should evolve and grow as we become adults. We will never know all the mysteries of God, so why even try to explain it? The rituals that we engage at church or the workplace are never going to go away. The most mature adult knows that "pretending" is a part of reality. So anyone (specifically atheists and skeptics) who attempts to deny the irrational and unknown truth of the universe is going to look...immature. Less mature than the religious people. Yes. So we might as well learn to understand religion better.
What do you think? Should people accept pretending as a part of acknowledging the mysterious and unknown, but no less real, parts of the universe?
I know plenty of Christians who no longer believe that "the spirit of Santa Clause" is in any way real. Nor have they ever even been mystically made aware of "some real unseen spirit that is a part of the [Yuletide] charity."
Yes, the ignorant children must pretend if pressured or seduced, it is a moderately studied concept called pseudo-maturity. And sure, experiences through imagination (although real experiences) can be summoned from pretention.
But, as one of those skeptics that you currently happen to condescend, I will tell you one thing I learned from personal interactions with critical people. When someone tells you to "grow up" they are often, but not limited to:
1. projecting (a common defense mechanism), since their lives are often in greater tatters than yours.
2. testing the waters, since if you take it then they will assume you agree that they are now grown up.
3. asking you to join merely their second way of thinking by giving up on some ideas/practices and accept some others, as if though merely their second way of viewing existence is the final and ultimate one.
I, for one, will deny the irrational support for (and exploitation of) the unknown as long as my human energy empowers me with loving-kindness. Pretending is thus out of the picture unless you are going to fairly go to your private clubs and pretend with your own groups without it affecting me. With every one of the hundreds of religions I have come across, even the liberal sides of them, this is simply not the case to various degrees up to even their very fundamentals and tax-structure sometimes.
Ha ! And what are you? A fully evidence based Atheist?
Ha ! I am just someone who does not think something is true - unless there is evidence that it is true.
Some people claim there is a god. Ha ! They have not while making this claim shown anything that suggests there is a god. Ha ! Therefore I do not think there is a god.
Ha ! I am just someone who does not think something is true - unless there is evidence that it is true.
Some people claim there is a god. Ha ! They have not while making this claim shown anything that suggests there is a god. Ha ! Therefore I do not think there is a god.
Not complex stuff is it? Ha !
People say they have FAITH that God exist. There is no “claim” in it.
It’s actually YOU who claims that God does not exist - now bring your evidence!
People say they have FAITH that God exist. There is no “claim” in it.
It’s actually YOU who claims that God does not exist - now bring your evidence!
That is an intellectual cop out, and merely playing games with words. If you have faith something (anything) exists, then you have made a claim that thing exists. If you aren't making that claim, there would be nothing in which to place your faith.
Having made a claim, the burden is on you as the claimant to support it. The burden is not on others to disprove your claim.
If the above does not hold for you, then I am free to come up with anything I can dream up, and expect it to stand without challenge. For example, "I believe my belly button lint controls the world's weather patterns." I would hope you feel free to challenge that belief, and to not accept it if I can't present any evidence to support my claim. If not, then I will feel free to convince others to believe the same thing, receive tax benefits from the government to support our Belly Button Lint Club (BBLC) meetings, and lobby to have my unsubtantiated theory taught in schools. Eventually, I would like holidays devoted to my belly button.
Does that sound far-fetched? It shouldn't.... that is the logical consequence of accepting claims in the absence of evidence.
That is an intellectual cop out, and merely playing games with words. If you have faith something (anything) exists, then you have made a claim that thing exists. If you aren't making that claim, there would be nothing in which to place your faith.
Having made a claim, the burden is on you as the claimant to support it. The burden is not on others to disprove your claim.
If the above does not hold for you, then I am free to come up with anything I can dream up, and expect it to stand without challenge. For example, "I believe my belly button lint controls the world's weather patterns." I would hope you feel free to challenge that belief, and to not accept it if I can't present any evidence to support my claim. If not, then I will feel free to convince others to believe the same thing, receive tax benefits from the government to support our Belly Button Lint Club (BBLC) meetings, and lobby to have my unsubtantiated theory taught in schools. Eventually, I would like holidays devoted to my belly button.
Does that sound far-fetched? It shouldn't.... that is the logical consequence of accepting claims in the absence of evidence.
There must be something to your belly button claim since there are billions of people in the world who share your belief.
Not.
Do you get how ridiculous those kind of atheist arguments are now? Yet I hear them all the time in this forum.
There must be something to your belly button claim since there are billions of people in the world who share your belief.
Not.
Do you get how ridiculous those kind of atheist arguments are now? Yet I hear them all the time in this forum.
Are you saying atheist use the argument that:many people believe it therefore there must be something to it;or are you saying atheists simply reply with a not when theists do it is the ridiculous?
Are you saying atheist use the argument that:many people believe it therefore there must be something to it;or are you saying atheists simply reply with a not when theists do it is the ridiculous?
Neither. I'm saying you can't compare a faith shared by billions, with something like the belly button claim which means nothing. Yet atheists make these kind of meaningless statements all the time ad nauseum.
It is not about pretending. It is about priming our state of mind. When we support the Santa myth, we set up a state of mind in children that enables the experience of wonder and stimulates their imaginations. If you see no value in allowing your children to have those experiences (which are only possible for a short while) then be the Grinch realist and deprive your children to feed your ego.
Believing in God is also about our state of mind, NOT what is happening in the physical world we inhabit. We are responsible for doing whatever is in our power to overcome, endure and prosper in this physical world ON OUR OWN. God gave us Dominion. Belief in God is the Comforter that enables a state of mind that facilitates doing just that. Those who do not believe are deprived of that advantage, but unfortunately, belief cannot be faked. I spent the first 30+ years of my life without belief in God and there was nothing I could do to alter that. That is why my experience was such a life-changing one because my unbelief vanished completely never to return.
It is not about pretending. It is about priming our state of mind. When we support the Santa myth, we set up a state of mind in children that enables the experience of wonder and stimulates their imaginations. If you see no value in allowing your children to have those experiences (which are only possible for a short while) then be the Grinch realist and deprive your children to feed your ego.
Believing in God is also about our state of mind, NOT what is happening in the physical world we inhabit. We are responsible for doing whatever is in our power to overcome, endure and prosper in this physical world ON OUR OWN. God gave us Dominion. Belief in God is the Comforter that enables a state of mind that facilitates doing just that. Those who do not believe are deprived of that advantage, but unfortunately, belief cannot be faked. I spent the first 30+ years of my life without belief in God and there was nothing I could do to alter that. That is why my experience was such a life-changing one because my unbelief vanished completely never to return.
I agree. You can't miss it once they tell you it's there.
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