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So I want to get back to faith in the employee. I have faith that he will do a good job for me, even if it gets really difficult to deliver the goods. He will faithfully deliver them, no matter what it takes.
No. I've explained it to you. Why are you ignoring that? You do not have 'faith' that he will do a good job, you have the expectation that he will do a good job and that expectation is based on the verifiable evidence that you yourself have that he has done a good job in the past - and when you have verifiable evidence you do not need 'FAITH'. Faith is obsolete in the face of verifiable evidence.
No. I've explained it to you. Why are you ignoring that? You do not have 'faith' that he will do a good job, you have the expectation that he will do a good job and that expectation is based on the verifiable evidence that you yourself have that he has done a good job in the past - and when you have verifiable evidence you do not need 'FAITH'. Faith is obsolete in the face of verifiable evidence.
Yeah, I think when faith is based on evidence it morphs into trust territory. You trust the employee. You trust the chair etc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
No. I've explained it to you. Why are you ignoring that? You do not have 'faith' that he will do a good job, you have the expectation that he will do a good job and that expectation is based on the verifiable evidence that you yourself have that he has done a good job in the past - and when you have verifiable evidence you do not need 'FAITH'. Faith is obsolete in the face of verifiable evidence.
Well, I've explained it to YOU and YOU'RE ignoring it.
Maybe I'll come at this a different way.
This guy pretty much ALWAYS wears black t-shirts. I don't recall ever a time when I saw him that he wasn't wearing a black t-shirt. My expectation is, that when I see him today, he will be wearing a dark t-shirt. I don't have FAITH that he will be wearing one, because my expectation doesn't transcend a mere belief in the likelihood that he will be wearing his usual clothes. Based on my observation, it's a solid bet he's wearing a black shirt.
I have FAITH, though, that he will be successful in getting the machine from Houston because I have FAITH in him. Faith in our relationship, faith in his integrity, faith in his work ethic. Faith in his willingness to step out and maybe take risks to complete the task he's promised to do.
There. I've tried to explain it again - the difference in expectation and faith.
I think the thing here is, if you don't experience "faith" you don't know the difference in the feeling that accompanies your expectation of seeing him in a black t-shirt vs. your faith that he will be loyal to you and thereby achieve the task of transporting the needed equipment.
Well, I've explained it to YOU and YOU'RE ignoring it.
Maybe I'll come at this a different way.
This guy pretty much ALWAYS wears black t-shirts. I don't recall ever a time when I saw him that he wasn't wearing a black t-shirt. My expectation is, that when I see him today, he will be wearing a dark t-shirt. I don't have FAITH that he will be wearing one, because my expectation doesn't transcend a mere belief in the likelihood that he will be wearing his usual clothes. Based on my observation, it's a solid bet he's wearing a black shirt.
Correct. Expectation based on verifiable evidence.
Quote:
I have FAITH, though, that he will be successful in getting the machine from Houston because I have FAITH in him. Faith in our relationship, faith in his integrity, faith in his work ethic. Faith in his willingness to step out and maybe take risks to complete the task he's promised to do.
No. It's exactly the same as the analogy of the black tee-shirt. No difference whatsoever!
You expect him to be wearing a black tee-shirt based on the verifiable evidence that he has always worn a black tee-shirt in the past.
You expect him to deliver the goods based on the verifiable evidence that he has always delivered the goods in the past.
Quote:
There. I've tried to explain it again - the difference in expectation and faith.
They are BOTH expectations based on verifiable evidence.
Quote:
I think the thing here is, if you don't experience "faith" you don't know the difference in the feeling that accompanies your expectation of seeing him in a black t-shirt vs. your faith that he will be loyal to you and thereby achieve the task of transporting the needed equipment.
Ye gods! It's just the same! Expecting him to wear a black shirt because he has always worn one is exactly the same as expecting him to do a good job because he has always done a good job. Both are expectations based on the verifiable evidence that you have from your past dealings with him.
Miss Hepburn, you and others are making the mistake of assuming he left any message at all. How do you know he did? Where is that message? Certainly you're not referring to the gospels????
No I'm not referring to the Gospels, thrill...I do think they tried to complete whole sentences he could have said!! I do....but I don't know that they got them (even ONE) even close to what he meant...He could have said,
" 'I Am' is the Way'....instead of, 'I am the Way'.
He could have said to the criminal on the right, 'Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise', instead of , "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise’' (Supposedly he spent 3 days in hell? How was the criminal in paradise with him that same day?)
Do you feel comforted when you mourn? What was left out? Ask any priest if he was able to comfort a mother or a wife over the grave of her son or husband. Good luck with that ..platitudes, platitudes.
What did we miss....there were no tape recorders!
Well, I've explained it to YOU and YOU'RE ignoring it.
I have FAITH, though, that he will be successful in getting the machine from Houston because I have FAITH in him. Faith in our relationship, faith in his integrity, faith in his work ethic.
That is not faith. That is trust.
The entire reason why he - and not someone else - is getting the machine at all is because you, or whoever sent him, has trust in the man to get the job done. Why? Because he was able to complete other jobs before. Only the most lackadaisical boss would send an untested, untried employee on a critical "mission" for the company. No, if you really need the machine from Houston, you send someone you *trust.*
Maybe I'll approach it from a different way:
During warfare, when a specific mission has to be accomplished - take out a machine gun nest, break through an enemy position, take the top of a hill - no commander ever says, "I have faith that my men will accompish the mission." No. What they say is that they picked their most TRUSTED men and sent them to do the job.
Why are they trusted? Because, as I said, they did missions before and were always successful.
If you send untried, green recruits to complete a critical mission, then you might be relying on faith. Why? Because you're depending on those men with no good reason to. Those new recruits are a complete unknown to you - you have no idea how they will perform or whether they'll be successful. All you have to hang on to is faith that they will accomplish their mission. But you have no good reason to think they will.
Which is what faith is - a belief in something with no good evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC
I think the thing here is, if you don't experience "faith" you don't know the difference in the feeling that accompanies your expectation of seeing him in a black t-shirt vs. your faith that he will be loyal to you and thereby achieve the task of transporting the needed equipment.
That is a total illusion.
Why do you have "faith" that your employee will be loyal to you? Why do you think that a rival company couldn't lure him away with promises of a higher wage and better benefits?
Because thus far he has always stuck with your company and no one else's. In other words, you have a track record of this employee always staying with you through thick and thin. A person can't be considered loyal to you if he's only worked for you a couple of weeks. Right?
Therefore, it's not really "faith" that you're feeling - because you only believe he's loyal to you because he's been loyal to you in the past.
Only someone completely naive would believe a complete stranger to the company would stay loyal to you - as well as complete the job by getting a machine from Houston. The accolaide of loyalty is earned. You don't get it automatically, from the first day of employment.
Which is why none of these examples show faith.
All of them imply a past track record from which to draw upon. He's loyal because he's been loyal in the past. He'll get the job done because he's gotten jobs done before - in the past. You have reason - i.e. evidence - to trust him this time.
The only time you could consider it "faith" is if you picked someone randomly off the street, hired him, and told him to get the machine from Houston. You have no idea if he's going to wear a black T-shirt - you don't even know if he wears black T-shirts, but you believe he will wear black via faith alone. There's no evidence, no good reason to expect him to wear black, but you'll believe he will ... because.
Then you send him on his job. Again, you have no idea if he's going to be loyal to you. In fact, you don't know this new employee's mannerisms at all. He could be a thief, he could be lazy, he could be an idiot. He could be a combination of those things, causing him to totally botch the job. And his favorite color might be red - so he wears red T-shirts. BUT ... you had "faith" in the guy but now you know better.
Oh no, not another phrase I have no idea about!
Wth is a Chan symbol!!?
Chan (sinified) Buddhism
"...For example, he mentions the most famous koan in Chinese Zen (Chan). A monk during the T'ang era asked if dogs have Buddha-nature, to which the master, Chao-chou, replied, "Mu!" While a simple translation means, "not; nothing," you might assume the master was screaming, "no!" Yet this "first koan" is not so simple. In Chan, this koan is described as "the gate to enlightenment." (The Big Think)
The other monks tried to find a rational answer to the question. The one who put the sandals on his head was making a meaningless answer, showing his better understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Ok, wait.
I don't have religious faith ...we, who do not care for religions at all, don't follow one religion's Creed...still have faith or belief or
we know things...so we may say we have faith in The Creator...the All That Is...and It's 'System'...a brilliant System of Cause and Effect.
Say, that what we focus on is drawn to us...what we believe at our core will come to us.
(Some say, "manifest", things don't drop outta thin air...they just don't, exactly...)
So, if I think the world is a haphazard place of accidents befalling me, that it is one tough place of hardships, that I have no control...guess what?
If I believe I can have anything I want; that this place is a play ground made for me/us, guess what?
SO...faith in the way things work can be tested time and time again....over and over. (I demonstrate to me friends all the time. They are shocked, cuz they don't get how the world works.)
Start small, baby steps...example...you're on a hike...boy, could you use a safety pin...my belief system is, 'It will come to me, that's a fact' (so smile)...10 ft later you see one in the dirt.
You want an obscure expensive book, (haha, this was before the internet)...you basically announce that to
The Powers That Be, (I don't care if you call it an angel, whatever)....smile, because you just placed your order...you will find it....
and at the Used Book price you wanted...might take a month...keep smilin', have no doubt , cuz it's a'comin'.
Doubt is what stops the entire process. Then the person becomes a life-long skeptic.
That's why you start with baby steps...like building a muscle.
Right now on another forum some girl is doing prayer or affirmations or 'something' for $900 million.
That's simply nuts. She hasn't done the study, research, testing, 'faith' muscle building. At her core belief,
I mean in her sub/unconscious mind, does she really believe this? Come on.
Ask to find a $bill, any denomination, in the next 2 weeks...keep picturing it, feeeeel the fun of finding it...
before you ask or command $900mil to come to you.
It's all about Core Belief.
And that's the fun of being here...you can test all this for yourself...don't believe anyone else...
YOU find out the power you have.
"There are two paths that lead to the gate of eternal life:
One bores into the earth like a worm, or like a dragon, flies into the sky"
I am (as Mystic says) a concrete thinker. I am more concerned with this world since my efforts to 'fly into the sky' just left me with back -strain. I can give reasons why I 'bore into the ground" but wouldn't quarrel with anyone who aims at the sky.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-13-2019 at 12:50 PM..
People with faith HAVE experienced Jesus, but it still takes a leap of "faith" accept it - because it's not of the 6 senses.
(You meant of the 5 senses) Forget it...they
have to have it visible, under a microscope, provable with math...they have no idea about any other
'realm' except this 3rd dimension. And, oh well, that's the way they are made ....as we
are made the way we are.
You can give examples of experiments on camera of tumors disappearing in 4 minutes
with 3 healers over it...it will mean nothing.
Jesus could heal a blind man in front of them ...they would say it was a coincidence.
Save your breath. I don't say that in despair.
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